ravichaudhary
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Ravi Chaudhary
Ravi Chaudhary
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Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions
- Thread starter drrajpalsingh
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prashantacmet
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So what was the original home of aryans as per your history knowledge and acceptance?
What is your opinion on Scythians and White hunas invasion theory on North India? These people came in India from west and assimilated here. If yes, who are tehir modern representatives? Do you think that tehse invaders concentration went on decreasing from west to east..that why we see the differenc ein physical appearance when we move from West to East in India?
There is a theory that Saka were indigenous and nothing to do with Scythian. Hunas were mostly limited to Kashmir and KPK region.
India has low diversity of R1a-SNP, only 1 branch is present in India. So I don't believe in a significant Scythian type of ancestry. Moreover Saka were more dominant in Gujarat region, Ruderasena(Saka king, so called Scythian) of Gujarat defeated Yodheyas of Haryana. Aryan(Indo-European) theory seems more credible than Scythian theory because of deep penetration of R1a and linguistics.
drrajpalsingh
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drrajpalsingh
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Chronology ke swal aur Aryan original home ki samshya ke vibhinna muddon pe charcha ko aage badhate hui arz hai:
Vedon ka jo swaroop ab humein hassil hai, kya yah Ved Vyas dwara diya gaya tha?
Yadi uttar Hain mein hai to Mahabharat ka pratham roop [8000 sloki] aur Rigveda ki ek hi chronology hui.
Mahbharata ki Rachna Ved Vyas dwara 'Mahabharata Yudha' ki ghatna ke thode samaya baad hi kar dali gai.
Mahabharata battle ki tithi c.900 BC to c.1500 BC ke doran vibhin itihaskar mante hain.
Is baare mein vidwan saathion ke vichar [praman sahit] amantrit hain,
taki
Aryans ke bharat agman/or/ original Indian hone ke swaal ka bhi nirakaran karne me madad mile.
Dhanyavad.
Vedon ka jo swaroop ab humein hassil hai, kya yah Ved Vyas dwara diya gaya tha?
Yadi uttar Hain mein hai to Mahabharat ka pratham roop [8000 sloki] aur Rigveda ki ek hi chronology hui.
Mahbharata ki Rachna Ved Vyas dwara 'Mahabharata Yudha' ki ghatna ke thode samaya baad hi kar dali gai.
Mahabharata battle ki tithi c.900 BC to c.1500 BC ke doran vibhin itihaskar mante hain.
Is baare mein vidwan saathion ke vichar [praman sahit] amantrit hain,
taki
Aryans ke bharat agman/or/ original Indian hone ke swaal ka bhi nirakaran karne me madad mile.
Dhanyavad.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Yes,
You seem to be advancing to right direction to understand the issue of the original home of the Aryans !!
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drrajpalsingh
New member
While recapitulating various theories related with the date of the Bharata Battle, S B Roy, Director Institute of Chronology, New Delhi says that there are several groups of authors who have advanced their views on the topic. (1976).
The dates range from c.3201 B.C to c.900 B.C.
In the First group fall
R Mankad, 3201 B.C.
M.M. Krishnamacari :3137 B.C.
C.V Vaidya : 3102 B.C.
V.B.Athvale : 3016 B.C.
..........................................................to be contd......next post
The dates range from c.3201 B.C to c.900 B.C.
In the First group fall
R Mankad, 3201 B.C.M.M. Krishnamacari :3137 B.C.
C.V Vaidya : 3102 B.C.
V.B.Athvale : 3016 B.C.
..........................................................to be contd......next post
drrajpalsingh
New member
Contd. from previous post:...............
Group B on the chronology of the Bharata Battle consists of :
Varaha Mihir, Kalhan and P.C. Sengupta who ascribe c.2500 B.C. as the date of this event.
...........................................................to be contd.............next post..............
Group B on the chronology of the Bharata Battle consists of :
Varaha Mihir, Kalhan and P.C. Sengupta who ascribe c.2500 B.C. as the date of this event.
...........................................................to be contd.............next post..............
drrajpalsingh
New member
Contd. from previous post..........
Group C on this issue ascribes date of this historic incident starting from c. 1450 B.C. to c. 1151 B.C. Dr. Roy has listed 14 authors who have ventured to suggest the dates in this group.
.....................to be contd..............next post........
Group C on this issue ascribes date of this historic incident starting from c. 1450 B.C. to c. 1151 B.C. Dr. Roy has listed 14 authors who have ventured to suggest the dates in this group.
.....................to be contd..............next post........
drrajpalsingh
New member
Contd from last post..................
the Last i.e. Group D discussed by the author consists of two authors namely Partiger 950 B.C. and HC Roy Chowdhuri 900 B.C.
Friends,
It is requested to the readers to come out with their comments on the above four groups' findings so that the discussion could move forward.
Thanks and regards
the Last i.e. Group D discussed by the author consists of two authors namely Partiger 950 B.C. and HC Roy Chowdhuri 900 B.C.
Friends,
It is requested to the readers to come out with their comments on the above four groups' findings so that the discussion could move forward.
Thanks and regards
Kamaal hai ki kisne 1976 me kya kaha jyada vajandaar hai parantu vaigyanik 2012 mein kya keh rahe hain uska koi vajood nahi hai. Hamein yeh mentality chodni hogi ki iss sansthan ke director ya phalane ne kya kaha. Mool sutron ka swayam adhyan jaroori hai. Mein phir dhora raha hoon ki aap kis karan se Saraswati nadi ke tootne aur sookhne ke pramaan ko andekha kar rahe hain?
Original home was what we know as Saraswati-Sindhu or Harappan civilization.
This post here (#256) will clarify about both Sakas (शक) and White Huns:
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=331358&viewfull=1#post331358
Regarding their modern representative currently, Sakas (rather shuq) were already living in Punjab and then some of their empires shifted both east and south.
White Huns could be currently located in few goths of Jats, Gujjars and Rajputs at least along with other communities. Kon kon si, I do not know but there is a post in our forum in the past that describe few of these.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Kamal aur vajandar kahan se aa gaye charcha mein,
abhi
1976 mein kahi gayee baat to post hi nahin hui !!!
Sabhi pathkon se yeh anurodh kiya gaya tha
ki
uper diye gaye 4 groups mein Bharata Battle ka jo tithi karam diya gaya hai uske baare mein hum charcha ko praman sahit age badhayen !
Mein aap ki baat ko pura vajan deta rahunga
lekin ek nivedan hai,
aap ka mool sutron ka swayam kiya gaya adhayan kya kah raha hai,
jara sajha karne ka kasht kijiyega.
drrajpalsingh
New member
1.Are both the terms 'Saraswati-Sindhu' or ''Harppan'' are interchangeable and represent one and the same civilisation or diifferent regions !
2. What was the expansion area of both these civilisations and also their period please .
3. What about their relationship with other group of people outside this area associated with the term 'Aryans.'
Yes, they could be interchangeable. Historically, when excavations first started Harappa was one of the the first sites discovered. So the civilization was given the name of the town, Harappan civilization. Later, few other sites were discovered around the same area so the name stuck. Later major sites were found along Indus, like Mohen-jo daro and several others so the name was changed to Indus valley civilization. Now we know that Saraswati (Gagghar-Hakra) seems to carry most of the sites hence the name. It does not do justice to sites in Gujarat. So if you wanted to you could come up with your name as well, if you have reasons for it.
However, the area currently is too vast and carries with it a time frame of many millennium (some place over 5000 years and in some place continuous for the past 8000 years like Rakhigarhi and Bhirrana).
However, there are many ways to classify:
- One naming convention is based on artifacts discovered there: unpainted pottery, ochre colored pottery etc.
- Another way is based on the age of the site: pre, early, mature, late and post
- Another way could very well be to associate with local culture: like Sothi-Siswal culture or phase, Kot-Diji phase or culture etc,
With more information there are many cultures identified. What was earlier called 'early Harappan culture', I think Dr Suraj Bhan called as Sothi-Siswal culture in certain place. Mature Harappan phase may be called various names in different places. For a long time early phase was called Mehrgarh phase since that was the only site but now we have Bhirrana so we need to come up with a name for this phase as well.
Borrowing a line from RHIN project that I had posted earlier: The Indus society, however, had no centralized power to govern the whole region. Thus we should rather look at the society as a network of highly diverse regional hegemony. These networks is where we should focus on, and we can come up with names.
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...s-Kindly-Share&p=332076&viewfull=1#post332076
Just that I use a different name. Wherever, there is a tendency to use Harappan culture/civ or Indus valley culture/civ, I just use the phrase Saraswati-Sindhu culture/civ. Saraswati represents a continuation in both culture and religion from ancient times to now so I prefer it.
I had already discussed this earlier. Kindly read post #339:
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=332018&viewfull=1#post332018
prashantacmet
New member
I would think that saka is another name for scythian tribe. When scythian hordes invaded india, there were called sakas by indigenous people.
But these new things have complelety bombarded my previous theories. These new words submitted by Mr. RAO gives me this sort of impression.
- Arayans were indigenous to India ..migration was from east to west
- There was never a scythian's (Scythia pepresenting modern day russia, ukraine) attack on India, sakas were indigenous to India
- White hunas were foreigners (probably turkic ancestry)
Now stretching it a bit further, may be it is a slight deviation from original topic..
- Do you beleive that arora/khatri share bactrian ancestry..these are bactrian people who stayed here after alexander went back?
- Don't you see any difference in physical appearance (punjab, kashmir, haryana) between people of north west and other parts of India?
- what about dravidians, are they different?
But these new things have complelety bombarded my previous theories. These new words submitted by Mr. RAO gives me this sort of impression.
- Arayans were indigenous to India ..migration was from east to west
- There was never a scythian's (Scythia pepresenting modern day russia, ukraine) attack on India, sakas were indigenous to India
- White hunas were foreigners (probably turkic ancestry)
Now stretching it a bit further, may be it is a slight deviation from original topic..
- Do you beleive that arora/khatri share bactrian ancestry..these are bactrian people who stayed here after alexander went back?
- Don't you see any difference in physical appearance (punjab, kashmir, haryana) between people of north west and other parts of India?
- what about dravidians, are they different?
I think that Huna mostly had satellite states in North-Western part of India and many Indian Huna might be indigenous ruler who were subservient to real Huna.
In genetic forums, people talk that Kashmirir Gujjar look different from rest of Kashmiri and other NW Indian. Their physical features overlap with Pakhtuns. So Kashmiri Gujjar might have some Huna(Turkic) ancestry. Apart from that I heard that Rajput have a clan name called 'Huna'(may or may not be related with real Huna).
Jats don't know Turkic components in autosomal test, only Pakhtun and some Muslims from Rohilakhand show Turkic component.
Greek genes are again said to be limited to Pakhtun only (that too 1-2%).
Scythians in themselves were not homogenous people, a number of tribes were clubbed together by some ignorant greeks as Scythian.
Difference in appearance between NW people and other has more to do with neolithic genes and IE expansion than later day tribes like Scythian,Greek and Hunas. It seems that foreign tribes like Huna, Greeks didn't leave linguistic and genetic traces.
Khatri doesn't have any significant greek ancestry.
Dravidians are said to be related with Sumerian civilization(Semitic people) who were mixed with dark-skinned veddoid natives of subcontinent. Brahui a dravidian speaking tribe in Balochistan is more cauasoid than NW Indians.
A very pertinent question indeed.
Comparative analysis is done for two reasons mainly,
If we find that dated records are not sufficient and there is gap then we look for the records of those who might contain narratives of timeline for which we have gaps.
Secondly, the perception of these communities about Jats is well established, for example Jats and Baloch have had quite stronger engagement before 10th century and it is well recorded by scholars in Pakistan (from my own experience). So we have to take into account of all the neighbourhood discourse that can help us understand.
Besides, we quite loosely use the territorial terms of Afghanistan and Turkistan as if they are no farther than Nangal or Sonipat. There is entirely different geo-poltical economy of the livelihood of the people, so some connections need to be proved in this regard, for fuller appreciation of referencing to them.
best,
Ambrish
A suggested Reading: KIngdom of Kabul by Mount Elphinstone
prashantacmet
New member
I got the following link in aligment of your theory..
http://www.hitxp.com/articles/history/myth-aryan-invasion-theory/
http://arisebharat.com/2008/01/21/bbc-accepts-that-the-aryan-invasion-theory-is-flawed/
http://hinduonline.co/Articles/HinduHistory/AryanInvasionTheory.html..
so looks like taht Aryan invasion theory is rejected by many scholars in recent years..so until something very concerete is presented here against this theory it almost seems acceptable to me. Narender Kharb ji/ rajpal ji how much comfortbale are you with this theory?
Now coming to Scythians and Hunas invasion theory..this link is uttering BS?
http://www.jatland.com/home/Indo-Scythian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians
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I think most of scythian theory is based on speculation(based on similarity of clan names because of Indo-european language, fire is still called Agni is Russian). There is no linguistic and genetic evidence of Scythians and same is true about Greeks. Indigenous Saka were prob. different people. btw Saka were more in Gujarat-MP regions, on the contrary Haryana had Yodheyas and other rulers.