Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions
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drrajpalsingh
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The discussion about Sakas and Scythians or white hunas has nothing to do with coming in or going out of the Aryan language group of people as regards our pre- historic times.
No evidence, to the best of my knowledge and belief, has been produced by any of the scholars so far to prove that Indian society was a closed one in pre-historic and proto-historic times.
If it has escaped my observation, kindly share so that I also join chorus to say that none ever entered India in pre-Historic times from outside !
On the other hand, a large amount of evidences have already been produced [ some of it even in some of the posts under this very thread] to prove that right from the dawn of history, the people of India had a close relationship with the people of central Asia as mentioned in Puranas, Mahabharta etc. and also testified by excavations carried out at various sites in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kazakistan, Merv and other places in Russia.
Invasion theory was different from Migration/Immigration of people from one country to another.
And it is an established fact that in the Ancient Times people from Central Asia went in different directions and one branch/group of them certainly came to India.
The moot point remains when did it happen i.e. the chronological order of these emigrants to Indian soil.
No evidence, to the best of my knowledge and belief, has been produced by any of the scholars so far to prove that Indian society was a closed one in pre-historic and proto-historic times.
If it has escaped my observation, kindly share so that I also join chorus to say that none ever entered India in pre-Historic times from outside !
On the other hand, a large amount of evidences have already been produced [ some of it even in some of the posts under this very thread] to prove that right from the dawn of history, the people of India had a close relationship with the people of central Asia as mentioned in Puranas, Mahabharta etc. and also testified by excavations carried out at various sites in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kazakistan, Merv and other places in Russia.
Invasion theory was different from Migration/Immigration of people from one country to another.
And it is an established fact that in the Ancient Times people from Central Asia went in different directions and one branch/group of them certainly came to India.
The moot point remains when did it happen i.e. the chronological order of these emigrants to Indian soil.
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drrajpalsingh
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drrajpalsingh
New member
What about coming of White Hunas [Scythians] also known as Kushanas and their fight against the then settlers of the region including Yaudheyas?
Scythian, Huna and Kushan were different people. In Indian context, Scythian is used for Saka, who may or may not be related with Scythian.
Hunas were mostly limited to Kashmir and they adopted Shaviat sect, Mihirkula was a Huna. There seem little connection between Jat and Hunas since Kashmir is Gujjar and Pandit dominated region. There were Greeks too, however these people don't seem to contribute much to genetic pool. There was a theory given by a British anthropologist that Pakhtuns were mixture of Greek and Rajputs on basis of clan names, however greek contribution to their gene is negligible. Surname may change without any genetic change. Mughals ruled over India for 100 of years but their genetic contribution is obviously small. Although, these rulers used to have many children but most of them used to die in wars.
BTW There is a Jamote tribe in Balochistan, in Baloch language Jamote means Jatt. They make 10% of population in Balochistan.
drrajpalsingh
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- Scythian term was used for various nomadic tribes by Greeks. All these tribes may or may not be related.
- Some say southern Russian region was original homeland of Scythian.
- They were Indo-European language speaker, so they are thought to be part of wider Aryan group
- They used to ride on horses, they were war loving people and proficient in archery.
- Sistan province of eastern Iran is also linked with Scythian
- They had R1a haplogorup(whose map I posted in post 461). Y chromsome haplogroup tells direct male ancestry and it doesn't take maternal and autosomal ancestry in account. Vedic Aryans are also supposed to be pred. R1a haplogroup. There is a wiki page about R1a.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Thanks friend for your replies to my questions !
Now, I would like to know the time/period when the Greek writers first started using the term 'Scythian'.
Has it anything to do with the region known as "Scythia''?
Thanks
ravinderjeet
New member
Herodotus (father of history) used term Scythian. There are cultural traits, customs, architecture, warfare techniques which are associated with Scythians, many mummies of Scythian warrior is unearthed, and genetically tested.
Indeed lot of BS is there in many links.
This study is very old when many people were not genetically tested.
Y-dna similarity between North-Indian and Eastern Europian is there, but not necessarily linked with Scythian.
The article you are referring to included north Indian groups and did not talk of Jats per se. Though they identified Rajputs and agragrian groups sharing primarily the traits.
Which article ?
Ab phata-phat proof de de.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Friend
Please share with us the exact quote of the paper/research article or book as you have aroused curiosity to know more about these people.
Thanks.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Aapki observation 100% sahi !!!
drrajpalsingh
New member
Friends,
We have seen so many quotes from Rigveda and recent researches on Saraswati to prove Indian Origin of the so called 'Aryans'.
But no satisfactory working conclusion could be arrived at on the issue as it did not take all other evidences in consideration.
The trend of the recent posts has totally derailed the thread from pre-historic/ancient times and pushed it towards near historic times.
Would it not be in the fitness of things to once we take up discussion on the issue to settle whether Central Asia was or was not the Original Home of the 'Aryans' !
If we unitedly take up one by one various hypotheses then some worthwhile result could be reached otherwise in the words of Bhai Ravinderjeet Singh we would reach nowhere !
Kindly share views on this theme only for the time being as after settling this perplexing hypothesis another hypothesis could be taken up for treatment.
We have seen so many quotes from Rigveda and recent researches on Saraswati to prove Indian Origin of the so called 'Aryans'.
But no satisfactory working conclusion could be arrived at on the issue as it did not take all other evidences in consideration.
The trend of the recent posts has totally derailed the thread from pre-historic/ancient times and pushed it towards near historic times.
Would it not be in the fitness of things to once we take up discussion on the issue to settle whether Central Asia was or was not the Original Home of the 'Aryans' !
If we unitedly take up one by one various hypotheses then some worthwhile result could be reached otherwise in the words of Bhai Ravinderjeet Singh we would reach nowhere !
Kindly share views on this theme only for the time being as after settling this perplexing hypothesis another hypothesis could be taken up for treatment.
About Scythian, lot of material is available on internet.
About genetics here is a good article
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml
This link also contains some history related to Indo-European, Scythian, etc and genetics is also updated(latest by Dec. 2012)
This tendency to gyrate towards blogs is remarkable when you can get the actual papers. Authored papers should be relied upon more than blogs.
Here is one such paper, regarding R1a (which is turning into somewhat of a legend over here):
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/full/ejhg2009194a.html
From conclusion:
Although the R1a1a* frequency and diversity is highest among Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers, the subhaplogroup R1a1a7-M458 frequency peaks among Slavic and Finno-Ugric peoples. Although this distinction by geography is not directly informative about the internal divisions of these separate language families, it might bear some significance for assessing dispersal models that have been proposed to explain the spread of Indo-Aryan languages in South Asia as it would exclude any significant patrilineal gene flow from East Europe to Asia, at least since the mid-Holocene period.
My understanding was that R1a was already in Indian subcontinent prior to 10000 BP.
This is also an interesting read, especially with map on page 4:
http://www.wiik.fi/kalevi/Wiik_Haplogroup_R1a.pdf
For a more broad spread, this article is good too:
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Kivisild2000.pdf
Abstract -
A recent African origin of modern humans, although still disputed, is supported now by a majority of genetic studies. To address the question when and where very early diversification(s) of modern humans outside of Africa occurred, we concentrated on the investigation of maternal and paternal lineages of the extant populations of India, southern China, Caucasus, Anatolia and Europe. Through the analyses of about 1000 mtDNA genomes and 400 Y chromosomesfrom various locations in India we reached the following conclusions, relevant to the peopling of Europe in particular and of the Old World in general. First, we found that the node of the phylogenetic tree of mtDNA, ancestral to more than 90 per cent of the present-day typically European maternal lineages, is present in India at a relatively highfrequency. Inferred coalescence time of this ancestral node is slightly above 50,000 BP. Second, we found that haplogroup U is the second most abundant mtDNA variety in India as it is in Europe. Summing up, we believe that there are now enough reasons not only to question a 'recent Indo-Aryan invasion' into India some 4000 BP, but alternatively to consider India as a part of the common gene pool ancestral to the diversity of human maternal lineages in Europe. Our results on Y-chromosomal diversity of various Indian populations support an early split between Indian and east of Indian paternal lineages, while on a surface, Indian (Sanskrit as well as Dravidic speakers) and European Y-chromosomal lineages are much closer than the corresponding mtDNA variants.
Probably R1a1a* frequency peaks in India but again is this particular subgroup linked with IE population ?
I think that mutation Z-93 is more important regarding IE.( R1a1a1h, R1a1a1h1a)
R1a1a* is found in tribal too.
I think it is erroneous to estimate age on basis of frequency and diversity in a population, rather it is more reliable to genetically test unearthed mummies.
drrajpalsingh
New member
To a layman like me in this field, kindly let me know the concrete result what is the implication of this study of Z-93 etc.. regarding the 'Aryans' stock of yore.