Died for/with green card!

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He was a Jat, He died a soldiers death and fell in battle. He served his army with courage and loyalty. When the moment came he did not flinch and therefore he was true to his blood , kaum, dharam and desh. His economic and political choices must not concern those who would post their respects to him herein. Our communications are in effect the sounding of a 'last post' for him. I have no hesitation in offering my respects to this young Jat and my condolences to his family. He was a warrior.

Amit Dahiyabadshah.
 
There is a difference in fighting for a nation and fighting for an organization like Al Quaida or Hamas. Late Uday Singh can't be called mercenary. If Amit's definition be true, what about all the Indian Soldiers who fought for British Empire and most of the time against our own cause, what will you call them. And what about some of the leaders who are destroying our own nation by encouraging corruption or for not fighting against them. I am sure by not performing their duty in right manner they are also fighting for some one other than our own nation. Would you call them also mercenary too and if so, what as a good citizen you are doing to eliminate that? Let us not flog the issue. Uday had died for a just cause as a soldier and we must respect that.
 
Consider a scenario, US armed forces opens a recruitment center in Delhi, there would be lot’s and lot’s of brave people out there, who would be willing to take the risk for a couple of thousand dollars a months in the face of widespread unemployment. Why can’t they do it, because It would be impossible to justify such a thing on moral ground in modern society. It would be an exploitation of the sorts – bhade ke sipahee would be too hard to handle. (This case is not really like this, Uday was more of an American, so close to citizenship, I count the obsession for west as a factor here, people are willing to take risks of different sorts to hold their foot firm on western lands – money for tuitions).

So I have two points to make,

1) It is morally wrong to hire a person who is a citizen of some other country (India) by US for such a cause when that other state (India) has all the responsibilities like security etc for this person. But US is country of immigrants. So they should definitely hire a guy, studying in a US university, in all probability would end up settling in US (citizen). So they should give him citizenship as soon as he joins, so that he would be entitled to state honor in the event he happen to pay ultimate price, rather than giving a special jet ride.
2) Indian administration/government on behalf of Indian citizen (and hence Indian citizens) would not make a big heroic thing out of it. You may have noticed that, there was no official comment about it from the government. In fact, they should take step to discourage such employment. Just for the sake of argument what if Indo-US conflict?

PS: It’s not a good idea to call all politician corrupt (dogs, who sell and eat their own people) to support an argument no way related to efficiency of Indian system. People do that mostly to justify their own situations. There are good capable people and leaders out there who are taking it ahead.
 
Dear All,

I see members having extreme views on the subject. Soldiers of a volunteer Army of a democratic nation being compared to mercenaries and that to from fellow JATS is not only unacceptable but sad reflection of how we JATS have always have such extreme views and suffered. There must be some basic fault in understanding the whole concept of soldiering by us, we who boast of having at least one person in the Armed Forces from each family.

I agree with Col Tevathia (Retd). How can you compare a soldier and a volunteer of Hamas and Al Quida? I am afraid the difference between fighting for the nation in the Armed Forces and being a member of a terrorist organisation is too much to be missed by educated people. If having a gun and firing a shot was soldiering then the largest standing Army would be in Bihar or Western UP or even in New York (Till some years back). Individual having guns are not soldiers. And who says that all the Soldiers are in complete agreement with the political or strategic aim of the Government. Each terrorist is someone else's freedom fighter.

There is no thermometer to check bravery so far. When a soldier joins the Army he is as brave as a common man on the street. It is the training in the Army, regimentation, combat efficiency and necessary equipment that makes a soldier brave. He is as vulnerable to fear as others. The difference is that he is with his 'Paltan' and learns to control fear.

Yes, Gurkhas fight for the British and the Indian Army, just like our forefathers fought for the British or some Mughal rulers. If I was to take the definition of mercenary in the literal sense then all the Indian Scientists and technocrats in foreign lands are nothing more than just mecenaries. A mecenary soldier only wields the gun but the inventors make Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs).

At least both the Uday's died for a cause which they thought was worth fighting and dying for. They led a soldier's life and they didn't merely 'Exist'. It is better than being killed in an accident or by AIDS. All who feel very strongly otherwise are entitled to their opinion.

I have still not understood the fuss about the green card. People have given up their lands, property, relatives and families and even travelled in containers like sardines to reach the 'White World'. What is the harm if Uday went there and joined the US Army? And who are we to decide what others want to do with their lives.

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
 
Let us take a deep breath and think rationally about the facts rather than shouting emotional slogans of patriotism and branding people with taboos like ‘mercenaries’.

1. An army of any nation is for combat and not for attending conferences and staying in 5-star hotels. In a combat there is the obvious risk/chance of getting killed.

2. Blessed are those who serve with dedication and sincerity whatever they choose to do in life.

3. In the present case, Mr. Uday chose to serve in US Army and he did so with honor. God bless his soul. He was not forced into anything. It is the freedom that the West thrives on. That is why these critics themselves are here and still speak out of ignorance.

4. God forbid, if one of these preachers (critical folks of Uday) gets involved in a car accident or plane crashes in North America while on a job, then what should we say? Should we say that a moron left his own beloved India for Western dream and died. What a fool he was! He should have stayed in his own place in India, and he might have been alive today.

5. There is plenty of nonsense in our system back home. Try to correct that rather than throwing these empty lines of morality.
 
Dear friends,

Has been long time since I visited the site as I have been travelling a lot these days. I read the views expressed by every one. High time more and more Jat boys join US army as that will give us tactical advantage sooner or later. I am sure many of such boys will move on to become officers and then they will be in a position to play India card like many of our Techies are doing these days. Let Jat brand become a global brand in bravery. I raise my hat to Uday. Why only the US Army, we should join UK and even European armies. Think long term...This will do a great deal of good to we all Jats...Let us export our bravery..... which I suppose we have in abundance..

Regards
Rajendra
 
I think Amit makes a valid point about the "mercenary" nature of the action of this misguided but unfortunate individual. Afterall on what grounds can you defend his being part of an army attacking Iraq: he had never being wronged by Iraqis, and neither was he doing it in self-defense (btw, both these reasons are equally valid for Americans as well).

The basic problem with this "he was just pursuing his dream" idea is its delinking of individual actions from their societal consequences. If individual action can always be justified in terms of selfish needs or the "family good/honor/pride", even Dawood Ibrahim's actions can be justified. Yes, they are illegal but so are the US actions in Iraq. It is the disconnect between individual actions and societal consequences that allowed the makers of the nuclear bombs dropped in Hiroshima to claim that they were just "doing their job". We have to be willing to be judged by the consequences of our actions, not the intentions underlying them.
 
Dear Mr. Assistant Professor:

How sad that an assistant professor (of something?) can argue so illogically! Indeed, he was not wronged by Iraqis and nor did he fight in self-defense. But then the army has to follow orders of its commander-in-chief who happens to be the President. Blame is not on individual soldiers but on those who made a decision to go to a war. Uday's (or any soldier's) job was to obey the army ordinance and so he did.

Your analysis should follow a logical course and must sort out responsibilities where they belong.

neeraj vedwan (Dec 19, 2003 05:12 p.m.):
I think Amit makes a valid point about the "mercenary" nature of the action of this misguided but unfortunate individual. Afterall on what grounds can you defend his being part of an army attacking Iraq: he had never being wronged by Iraqis, and neither was he doing it in self-defense (btw, both these reasons are equally valid for Americans as well).

The basic problem with this "he was just pursuing his dream" idea is its delinking of individual actions from their societal consequences. If individual action can always be justified in terms of selfish needs or the "family good/honor/pride", even Dawood Ibrahim's actions can be justified. Yes, they are illegal but so are the US actions in Iraq. It is the disconnect between individual actions and societal consequences that allowed the makers of the nuclear bombs dropped in Hiroshima to claim that they were just "doing their job". We have to be willing to be judged by the consequences of our actions, not the intentions underlying them.
 
Assistant professor made one of the most asinine analogies about soldier following orders, and the wrong Iraq did to him. I doubt most indian soldiers were wronged by any Pakistanis, when they 'liberated' Bangladesh. You can argue about US invasion of Iraq till you are blue in the face, but one of the by-product is removal of Saddam, who is far worse than Yahya Khan ever was. Its going to be a tough road to estabilish democracy in an area which never has had democracy....but that is another argument.

Uday joined before September 11, and signed a contract with the US Army. Contrary to popular thinking here on the boards, he already had his green card (You have to have at least a green card to join the US Army). He joined to get some college money. He had mental toughness and strength to pass through paratrooper school at Ft. Benning, Georgia, which I doubt few on this board can pass even in their physical peak. When the duty called during war, he could have easily walked away and come back to india. He knew the dangers as letters to his father attested. yet he was a man of his word to his newly adopted nation, his unit and squadron. He is a hero and a brave man.

Its easy to criticize somebody else's action and bark like a dog. However, when someone makes the ultimate sacrifice in order to keep his word and do an honarable job, and people throw callous words...then I must speak up. Aren't you the ultimate hypocrite Mr. Assistant Prof...living in the US, and criticizing a soldier who gave his life following orders, who gave the ultimate sacrifice for your right to make money in the US. Do you think an Army can function if the soldiers are given a choice to desert in times of war?

Are you sure you are a jat?
 
Died as an honorable soldier with purple heart and bronze star...

I think Uday’s sacrifice encompasses many hidden issues we may never have touched upon, including morality, patriotism, social conscience, including ignorance and pure denial! But it has indeed been a good awakening for a few. I do not believe even ALL Americans were in favor of the war. I was myself against it because of the 3 reasons:

The war was unprovoked;
There has never been preemptive strike in the past;
The UN was not involved…

But that has no relevance to Uday’s sacrifice? He did what he was asked to do. We are simply discussing the criticism bestowed to him posthumously, especially by a few who don’t even know what patriotism means. No one is debating the war. Having said that I do feel like highlighting a few things stated in various posts:

“God forbid, if one of these preachers (critical folks of Uday) gets involved in a car accident or plane crashes in North America while on a job, then what should we say? Should we say that a moron left his own beloved India for Western dream and died? What a fool he was! He should have stayed in his own place in India, and he might have been alive today.”

My response: Thank you brother! Finally a “few good men” with integrity and social conscience do exist on our humble mother earth!

“Consider a scenario, US armed forces opens a recruitment center in Delhi, there would be lot’s and lot’s of brave people out there, who would be willing to take the risk for a couple of thousand dollars a months in the face of widespread unemployment. Why can’t they do it, because it would be impossible to justify such a thing on moral ground in modern society?”

My response: Consider a scenario, a US delegation comes to Bangalore, or Hyderabad to recruit “the smart Indian techies” there will be a lots and lots of brilliant techies ready to pack the one suitcase every immigrant comes to the Ellis Island with! Wait…it has already happened……. what did the Indian Govt do? Did the US Govt consider it immoral? Nope! Some IItians were only too thankful for this humble gesture of Bill Clinton, and for the one way ticket to the promise land!

“It would be an exploitation of the sorts – bhade ke sipahee would be too hard to handle.”

My response: Whether it is Bhade ka sipaheee or Bhade ka scientist, doctor or engineer is there any difference? Have you any idea how long the bhade ka “brain drain” has been afloat the US soil? Indians are most successful and desired workforce in any western land, because of those of us who have established ourselves as a bunch of credible, smart, intelligent and hard working people. Asian American students have long been hailed as the brightest kids here; you will find them in the science fairs, geography bees and other intellectually stimulating contests. So I have known of many other “bhade ka brands!”

“It is morally wrong to hire a person who is a citizen of some other country (India) by US for such a cause when that other state (India) has all the responsibilities like security etc for this person.”

My response: Then why did our true patriot Sateynadra Dubey (who never left the Indian soil to better his life) succumb to such pathetic death? Anyone?

“But US is country of immigrants. So they should definitely hire a guy, studying in a US university, in all probability would end up settling in US (citizen). So they should give him citizenship as soon as he joins, so that he would be entitled to state honor in the event he happens to pay ultimate price, rather than giving a special jet ride.”

My response: Wow! What an epiphany! This is where I was trying to draw everyone’s attention to, in the previous posting as to “who shall live.” It was a philosophical metaphor; this group (the honorable one in the American Universities… arguably with a halo around their heads?) sure has all the markings of a state honoree! Yup, in all probability this group will stick around the US soil, but will not be put through the public microscope as Uday has been! Because this group has legitimate right to belong to or study in the US, more than Uday! And because this group is privileged to abandon their homeland in order to better their lives? As if the preaching were already not absurd enough, now we are justifying our stay in the western land huh?

“Indian administration/government on behalf of Indian citizen (and hence Indian citizens) would not make a big heroic thing out of it. You may have noticed that, there was no official comment about it from the government.”

My response: Indian Administration didn’t make any statement about Sateyndra Dubey’s unwarranted death either…err until many thousand people signed a petition…remember? India sends most scientists, doctors and engineers every year than the scientist immigrants from all other nations combined! Why, because they (scientists from their countries) have better living and working conditions in their homeland. Do you hear any murmurs from the Indian Govt?

Finally, here is what everyone should ponder on:

“Let the one among you who is without sin throw the first stone at her.” This proverbial truth should be used as a cornerstone before criticizing anyone for anything. So, for all of you enthusiasts who crave adrenaline rush for patriotism and steadfastly maintain the only definition you have known about patriotism (whether it is staying in your village or your country), let the stark reality rein supreme in your mind. I would strongly urge you all to hold your horses while you are in transition to your destination – that is, until after you have acclaimed that Oxford or Harvard degree, chosen your ideal vocation, settled in life (in India) for good, let magnanimity rule your thoughts! However, if you simply like essay competition on public boards and do not have a genuine insight into your own life’s journey which has just begun, I humbly apologize for any inconvenience… truly, I mean it!

I wanted to once again do the meta-analysis of the term patriot. Yes, it indeed there is a world of difference in working as a civilian and being a soldier! Soldiers are protectors of the nations, and of human lives! They live and die proudly for their country. It is so true, as a civilian you lead a sheltered life; you wake up as per your wish to the tune of your preferred clock, perform the morning routine and head to work or school. At the end of the day you pick up your kids and the dry-cleaning. You come home to a safe and comfortable environment, cook warm meal, help kids with homework, watch the stale TV news you have heard in the car radio during your commute to work. And long before you can read a page or two of a good book, you fall asleep and your day is done! On weekends you buy groceries, cook, clean, wash, gallivant at the fancy malls, visit friends or attend a social gathering, read, write or hop into your run of the mill new Jaguar, go watch a movie. During holidays you exchange gifts, plan excursions and complain about the stale meal offered during your flight to Hawaii, or why it took so long for a flight to arrive! That’s pretty much life of a civilian living in North America…

If you are a “civilian student” you take a few classes, on some evenings you enjoy the fireside chats with faculty members; occasionally visit the library and yeah…the weekend activities with friends are at your disposal, so you leisurely plan your project assignments saving time for visits to the local art museum and who knows -- if your heart fancies you hop into your old Toyota and root for your home team hero at the fraternity sports! In between you spend hours on end detailing your poor cooking skills to your dear parents from the other shore….who are anxiously awaiting your speedy return home. There, your week is done….no your semester is done!

So, the daily mundane life is pretty interesting. You like the control you have over every planned minute of your day. Overall, you live the short or long American dream… life is good! Once in a while you read or hear about strife in your country, the soldiers are dying on the line of control. Your heart aches for their suffering… but you are so far away, all you could do is pray for them. You wish you could be more patriotic… go to the frontline and fight the gorilla war raged against your country by religious fanatics and insurgents. But you are not there… You are really not there…you are in North America… I have no problem agreeing to this term applied as empathy…..but patriotism by no means!

Not the case for the guy in the army though! For the army you have to be r-e-a-l-l-y disciplined! You don’t set your own priorities or structure your daily routine; the army does it for you! You slog from dawn to dusk in uniform and come home to a lonely barrack. And when the war breaks and your country needs you leave everything at a moments’ notice. In the war all you care is to save your own life and that of your troop mates negotiating thick forest swamps, burning sand dunes, snow covered terrains or rain drenched landmines! If you are lucky you escape the barrage of guns and grenades directed at you at all times. If you make it through the day, you retire to a 6 feet space in your crowded tank, or the makeshift tent house. There is no telling who is a friend or a foe from behind enemy lines, so you lay your faith in god that you will live another day. You are ever so thankful if you get a glimpse of the life you left behind, a letter from home, a picture of your kid, or the letter of your loving wife or heeding of your ever protective mother. Festivals and holidays come and go; you miss the birth of your child, wedding of a cousin and even funeral of a loved one. Life goes on without you; you have no control over anything. Some do it for living; others choose it as a vocation. Either way, this is indeed patriotism.

This is how I see patriotism, everything else is baloney! The moment one leaves his grassroots for a different destination (other than the defense forces) never to come back and live there again, whether it is one mile from one’s birthplace or ten thousand miles from home, it can be categorically defined as “bettering one’s life!” Some might agree that if you contribute to your country in any way shape or form even from afar, it can still be looked upon as goodwill and empathy; and in a broader sense even patriotism! So let’s not be too narrow minded or prophetic about other’s destinies when we haven’t met our own?

This morning I was not only part of the research team at the NIH, but also the Hindi interpreter for an Indian Jat (who by the way is neither a techie, nor an IItian, just a gas station worker) with epilepsy, who had to have an intricate brain surgery to resect the diseased part of his brain. During the delicate neurosurgery the brain mapping was done to identify and stimulate certain parts to see the integrity of the functions. I had to translate what was being done to the different lobes of his brain, while testing his speech and sensory areas by eliciting responses through a slide show. Was I a patriot? Nope! Was the experience gratifying as a decent human being, and as a fellow Indian? Yes!

Who are we to draw the moral boundaries? Who are we to call someone else a lesser human?

Vivek: your posts are always enlightening and unbiased. Thanks for the contribution!
 
Ad hominem attacks don't help the argument; they merely serve to increase the temperatures and degrade the discourse.

The actions of the person in question were honorable, to the extent that he fulfilled his part of a contract. But to use that as a comprehensive measure to judge people's action is neither sufficient nor appropriate. We don't just live in a world of utilitarian contracts, we also inhabit a moral universe. In terms of fulfilling his role in a transaction, Uday did his part. He may also have been a supremely gifted individual, a superhuman, but that doesn't automatically make his actions right. (Robert McNamara, the first person to score a 800 on GMAT, made horrendous mistakes in judgement, maybe owing to his arrogance, in directing the Vietnam war, and thereby contributing to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of individuals. Thus, the individual abilities, IQ, endurance, etc. are not the point here.)

The story of human courage doesn't start and end with the military valor. People who conscientiously object to taking part in unjust wars are also equally, perhaps more, courageous, for they are often going against the tide and the human proclivity to find warmth among herds (and how would you "rate" the courage of Socrates, who died at the altar of truth. He was blind; by your token, he would flunk the courage test). Also, the moral rightness is not simply the perogative of victors or of "brave" people. The military code of conduct (based on chivalry, and unfortunately often misogyny and other kinds of exclusivist/bigoted views) is not the only guide to human conduct. People can lead good, moral lives based on other yardsticks as well.

As for the question of Indian soldiers fighting against Pakistan, the history of conflict between the two nations, and the mutual harm it has caused, cannot be argued. There simply existed no such history between Iraq and India. Therefore, the often-invoked principle of self-defense does not apply in the case of the war in question. On a personal basis, my actions in this country (or elsewhere) are not leading to anyone's death or maiming. Neither have I put myself in the service of imperial ambition nor will I do so in future.

Uday's actions, in sum, can be seen in a very positive light, but only in a certain kind of moral universe, where unflinchingly following orders, unquestioned subservience and prowess of a certain kind are highly valued. (almost similar in SOME ways to the Mumbai underworld, where one is not supposed to backout after taking a supari, no matter what the consequences. In other words fulfilling the contract is the supreme value, everything else is irrelevant). But it is clear, to me, that these are not the only values by which people's actions can, or should, be judged.

As for my Jatness, my defintion of it definitely does not include the capacity to mount vicious attacks on people, instead of countering their arguments. Propensity to call names, use abusive language and hurl epithets are not what I associate with being Jat either.
 
Dear Members,

This editorial article appeared in Times of India and I beleive is relevant to this topic.


Proxy Hero

[ MONDAY, DECEMBER 08, 2003 12:00:00 AM ]

Why an Indian soldier died on an American battlefield



The death of a young Indian Army Specialist, Uday Singh, in an ambush in Iraq could hold crucial lessons for New Delhi . Uday first went to the US in 2000 where he worked his way through school, returned to India to finish high school and went back to enlist in the US army. Had his ambitions come to fruition, he would have been another testimony to the enduring attraction of the great American dream — that anyone with grit and gumption will find unlimited opportunities there. But there is a dark history to the Uday Singh story. During the American civil war, immigrants from Europe were conscripted as soon as they disembarked on Ellis Island and sent straight to the front. Many never returned to live the American dream. Cut to the Vietnam war. The bulk of America ’s fighting machine comprised blacks and poor whites. Today, the US army offers opportunities to immigrants that they would otherwise not get and, naturally, many snap them up.




Ironically, Uday — a green card holder who was still an Indian citizen — died in a war which is America ’s alone. Barring support from the UK and Australia , Washington has made it clear that it will go it alone. It overlooked international objections to such unilateral action and made it plain that no one can question it or, indeed, expect to reap any post-war dividend. Yet, it has no qualms in expecting soldiers from countries whose advice and caution it has disregarded to die for George Bush’s war on terrorism. With body bags returning home at the rate of one a day, Washington has no option but to boost the number of troops. But, sending in more home-grown Americans is likely further to alienate the public at a time when President Bush’s approval ratings are falling. The obvious choice would be to look to the immigrant population and, of course, soldiers from third countries. With its enormous money power and influence, Washington is in a position to offer sops and hold out threats to garner the required troops. New Delhi has so far resisted US pressure to send in troops to the explosive minefields of Iraq . It must continue to do so. Mr Bush started this war against all wise counsel, he must see it through. We cannot afford to have our soldiers dying in someone else’s war. The death in action of another soldier Uday Singh who fell to terrorist bullets in Kashmir last week, shows we have our own wars to fight.

Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/344959.cms
 
Dear Rajenderji
I have always admired the bright ideas you have given on this board. I fully agree with you & have deep condolences to Uday's family he was a soldier & died a soldier's death no matter he was fighting for US army he was not fighting his own people moreover it was his duty & he performed it well.

Rathee
Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde (Dec 19, 2003 11:31 a.m.):
Dear friends,

Has been long time since I visited the site as I have been travelling a lot these days. I read the views expressed by every one. High time more and more Jat boys join US army as that will give us tactical advantage sooner or later. I am sure many of such boys will move on to become officers and then they will be in a position to play India card like many of our Techies are doing these days. Let Jat brand become a global brand in bravery. I raise my hat to Uday. Why only the US Army, we should join UK and even European armies. Think long term...This will do a great deal of good to we all Jats...Let us export our bravery..... which I suppose we have in abundance..

Regards
Rajendra
 
US invasion of Iraq is a completely different topic with respect to Uday's honorable service. There is a thread devoted to it. It has to do with the previously growing continuum of support for terrorism, and the fact that if those that attacked on September 11 had WMD, they would not have hesitated to use them. There is considerable criticism about preemptive efforts done to prevent September 11, yet there was a lot more threat from Iraq to US, if they were to acquire WMD's and their ability to blackmail the US and the world...similar what North Korea is doing, except they do not have proximity to oil.

Yes its about oil, but oil is lifeblood of todays' economy. Without a regular dependable supply, you would have chaos, civil war, nuclear war, and untold deaths. You say that attack on Iraq was unprovoked. September 11 killed more lives than Pearl Harbor. This war against terrorism is a different war without boundaries. Saddam was not innocent...he was dining and wining Abu Nidal, and Al Qaida operative before he had him killed. Further he was a psychotic meglomaniac mass murderer who wanted to get even with the US for the first Gulf war.

Two days ago, Iraq's ambassodor chided the UN about looking the other way while Saddam killed millions, and currently squabbling about making money while Iraq needs security help.

US has supported many dictators, but the alternative has usually been communism, or radical islam. The policy makers have had to choose lesser of two evils, and sometimes the lesser evil didn't turn out to be so. They have never been an imperial power to rule over any nation such as Britain or France, and have actually helped the two nations it conquered (Japan and W germany)to become free and become more economical powerful than ever before. The same is the hope for Iraq. You criticises dropping of bombs at Hiroshima....howeever there is an equally compelling argument that it saved many more lives by bringing an end to a terrible war. Don't for once think that opposition would not have used them

You equated a soldier giving sacrifice and serving his unit to some underworld supari contract. It seems you have no idea what it takes to be a soldier. A supari contractor has no obligation to sacrifice his life for good of a nation. The usual operandus is to surprise the victim, hopefully from the back and pull a trigger. This is usually what's associated with a definition of a coward. Usually the highest bidder wins out with these people, and if the odds are even slightly against them...they run. They will never fight you in on one situation, and they fight for no civilized principle. Disrespecting Uday tantamounts to disrespecting any soldier of any country.
 
I don't want to digress here into a diatribe against the US foreign policy; the pertinent literature is too voluminous, the evidence too overwhelming to exculpate the US in the summary manner of your attempt to do so.

US's invaion of Vietnam was one of the worst atocity visited upon the world, post-second WW. There are more war criminals living in Miami than probably in the rest of the world, sheltered by the US from any accounting for their gory misdeeds. Henry Kissinger is probably the biggest war criminal loose in this world (read Chris Hitchens' utterly convincing book about why Kissinger is a fit case to be tried for war crimes. Incidentally, Hitchens is a hawk on the Iraq war and generally supports the Bush foreign policy.). The spectre of communism or radical islam that you so mechanically invoke was never really the case in many situations. Dulles brothers' (earlier incarnation of the likes of Cheney) theory of "domino effect" didn't come true in Vietnam. If anything, the rationale holds even less for the invasion of Grenada and throttling of Nicaragua, which you will discover, if you will bother to lookup, had much better quality of life for a vast majority of its impoverished populace under Ortega's direction. After the use forced a "regime change" there, Nicaragua has slipped into near chaotic conditions. I could go on and on. the record of US's perfidy, rapacity and blood-thristiness is too extensive to even be cursorily mentioned here.

You are factually wrong about the US never having been an imperial power, even in the limited sense of DIRECT political control. Phillipines was a colony of the US for approx. 50 years (app. 1896-1946. In fact, I am glad that you brought this up because Bush only the other day made an Irq-Phillipines analogy, saying that the Phillipines are a role-model for the US intervention in Iraq, thus making clear, that the US would like to put a client/puppet regime in Iraq (in the manner of the Marcos regime in Phillipines, which committed tremendous atrocities with tacit US approval) which will kow-tow to it in all important political and economic matters. In as much as the US use of nuclear weapons is concerned, there is ample documentation to prove that Japan was either on the verge of surrendering, or could have been intimidated into surrendering by dropping a nuclear bomb in the Bay adjacent to Hiroshima. It was done more with a view to send a message to Soviet Union, as even Eisenhower admitted when on the eve of his retirement, he famously warned Americans to beware of the Military-Industrial complex, and its capacity to destroy the democratic fabric of this country.

Overall, the fascist cabal in power in Washington is a greater threat to world peace than Palestinians, Hamas, or anyone else, a fact grasped clearly by the majority of the world's population today.

My point in writing about Uday's tragic death was simply to make a GENERAL statement about how we are leading increasingly atomized lives, where indivdual and social good are hard to define and even harder to integrate. In my view, someone working in Los Alamos lab on developing a chip that goes into making a "daisy cutter" is as liable for the consequences of his actions as the person who drops the bomb. We simply cannot hind behind the facade of "duty", "family pride", "proud tradition", "adrenaline rush", or whatever else as justifications for our actions. After all we are not being forced into these actions without our knowledge or consent.

I understand that there is a massive, multi-pronged, 24-hr, indoctrination campaign that goes on in this country, often with the full complicity of the media. As individuals, and privileged ones at that, however, we ought to use our free will and our ability to discern, to separate fact from propaganda. Let us not become apologists for the US imperialism and its predatory designs in the world


And for those who are feeling sanguine about the prospects of Saddam's trial and consequent redemption of US's past acts of omission and commission (wrt Saddam), here is an extrememly brief history of US past behavior in these matters (from another listserv):

"Let's see what happened in the past.

* Noriega was tried in the US, but very little was published about the trial. He was denied any right of a proper defense -- to call witnesses, etc. Of course he was seized illegally in the first place, by an illegal
invasion of Panama. Noriega had been on the CIA payroll for over 20 years, and was showing signs of independence.

* Bernard Couard, of Grenada, was tried in Grenada by the US puppet government put up there. He was granted no rights at all. He and his wife, who have now been in prison for over 20 years, have been repeatedly tortured. His wife has been driven insane by repeated
gang-rapes by her jailers.

I have a friend, Richard Gibson of the Sociology Dept. at San Diego State, who has visited them in prison and written about all this. It's a horror story akin to the horror stories about Saddam's torture chambers.
The US is 100% responsible; Grenada was, and is, completely controlled by the US.

* Milosevic is proving to be an embarrassment to the US and NATO precisely because he's being tried in Europe, where the governments are a little less brazen about violating every single right a defendant has, than they are in the US. Therefore, Milosevic's trial gets little
publicity here in the US, and his testimony has probably won him more supporters in Serbia than he had to begin with.

It's well known that the US supports the fascist Kosovo Liberation Army, who are every bit as brutal as the Serbs ever were."


Vivek Singh Tomar (Dec 20, 2003 10:30 a.m.):
US invasion of Iraq is a completely different topic with respect to Uday's honorable service. There is a thread devoted to it. It has to do with the previously growing continuum of support for terrorism, and the fact that if those that attacked on September 11 had WMD, they would not have hesitated to use them. There is considerable criticism about preemptive efforts done to prevent September 11, yet there was a lot more threat from Iraq to US, if they were to acquire WMD's and their ability to blackmail the US and the world...similar what North Korea is doing, except they do not have proximity to oil.

Yes its about oil, but oil is lifeblood of todays' economy. Without a regular dependable supply, you would have chaos, civil war, nuclear war, and untold deaths. You say that attack on Iraq was unprovoked. September 11 killed more lives than Pearl Harbor. This war against terrorism is a different war without boundaries. Saddam was not innocent...he was dining and wining Abu Nidal, and Al Qaida operative before he had him killed. Further he was a psychotic meglomaniac mass murderer who wanted to get even with the US for the first Gulf war.

Two days ago, Iraq's ambassodor chided the UN about looking the other way while Saddam killed millions, and currently squabbling about making money while Iraq needs security help.

US has supported many dictators, but the alternative has usually been communism, or radical islam. The policy makers have had to choose lesser of two evils, and sometimes the lesser evil didn't turn out to be so. They have never been an imperial power to rule over any nation such as Britain or France, and have actually helped the two nations it conquered (Japan and W germany)to become free and become more economical powerful than ever before. The same is the hope for Iraq. You criticises dropping of bombs at Hiroshima....howeever there is an equally compelling argument that it saved many more lives by bringing an end to a terrible war. Don't for once think that opposition would not have used them

You equated a soldier giving sacrifice and serving his unit to some underworld supari contract. It seems you have no idea what it takes to be a soldier. A supari contractor has no obligation to sacrifice his life for good of a nation. The usual operandus is to surprise the victim, hopefully from the back and pull a trigger. This is usually what's associated with a definition of a coward. Usually the highest bidder wins out with these people, and if the odds are even slightly against them...they run. They will never fight you in on one situation, and they fight for no civilized principle. Disrespecting Uday tantamounts to disrespecting any soldier of any country.
 
Let Uday rest in peace. Discussions about Grenada and other tin pot dictators who were no angels themselves can go on in some other thread...not unlike Mushharaff that US is supporting now.
 
Dear jat technocrates, scientists and others in USA,

Its very thin line dividing Uday and many of you working for USA. Many of the technical innovations you make, software you write and the inventions you all make, finally end up having military applications directly or indirectly. All I will recommend that let our jat boys and girls take aggressive part all over the world in what ever they can contribute the most. Let us not worry about the fine details of what people think as of now. In long run this will do lot of good to all of us.

Regards
Rajendra
 
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