Do we Jat really need Reservation ?

[anilsangwan]

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.. गोबर लिकड़ लिया इस टोपिक का .... उस ने कितना इ छड़ ल्यो एब....किमे आणि जानी ना स ....

ना मिले आरक्षण....... 2 मुट्ठी जाट सें इस साईट पे....... उनका एह ना faisla हो की दे रा. ...... गामा में तो बेर ना कितने इसे पावेंगे जो आरक्षण का मतलब "होका पानी बन्ध" सोचेंगे.......


मोड्यो....समेट दयो गूदड़ इस थ्रेड के.....





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[annch]

Kuldip,
Thanks for the information. Virender ji had also pointed out the same in his post.
How do you expect people to miss such low hanging fruits as OBC reservation? There are ways, or else people will find ways, to bypass income cap. There are plenty of loopholes. What about the double income families or business men, doctors/ lawyers in private practice who do not have a defined income?
(A couple of years back, a jat friend of mine got a valid SC certificate made just to prove how easy it was. I hope things have improved now).
Like Anil Sangwan indicated, it would be difficult to reach a conclusion on this issue.
Regards,
Anju

Anjoo,

The creamy layer is excluded by putting a cap on the annual income of the family and while applying for a seat in an professional college or for job all these details are to be submitted. Currently the cap is 4.5LPA. If the income of the father is more than this the family falls in the creamy layer and hence no reservation.

Further, since 90% of our brethern are in villages and 10% in urban areas and are comfortably well off and obviously belong to the creamy layer all of them will not be able to enjoy the fruits of reservation and many seats would be vacant for people from the economically unsound background. { the figures of 90% and 10% -- i came across in this thread ; also the economic status of the jats who are city dewellers}

Another interesting point is -- jats in Rajasthan, Delhi and UP have already been declared as OBC...and if we consider the total population of jats then the majority is already in the OBC category and noone seems to mind it. Also, people from these states have really benefited from the OBC reservation. Reservation provided the push that they were lacking.

Moreover,some anti-reservation lobbyist equate reservation to not studying....i do not understand how they arrived at this conclusion!!

OBC reservation is not absolute...it has its checks and balances...like the income cap. It is the absolute reservation like for the SCs and STs which harms in the long run. Bcoz they know the reservation would always be there and the well off corner all the seats and hence even after providing reservation for six decades the condition of SCs is deplorable.

Regards,

Kuldeep


P.S. -- This post is in reply to Anjoo's post (even though it was not directed to me)and if she deems fit she can choose to reply or ignore ; others kindly resist from quoting.

 

[brainspeak]

Kuldip,
Thanks for the information. Virender ji had also pointed out the same in his post.
How do you expect people to miss such low hanging fruits as OBC reservation? There are ways, or else people will find ways, to bypass income cap. There are plenty of loopholes. What about the double income families or business men, doctors/ lawyers in private practice who do not have a defined income?
(A couple of years back, a jat friend of mine got a valid SC certificate made just to prove how easy it was. I hope things have improved now).
Like Anil Sangwan indicated, it would be difficult to reach a conclusion on this issue.
Regards,
Anju

Anjoo,

You are absolutely right. There are plenty of loopholes and people do exploit it. I will give you an interesting example:

Someone I know, adopted a unique way to bypass the income cap. His father divorced his mother (on paper) and the guy was shown as dependent on the alimony money. Thus he could avail the OBC quota.

Now as you have mentioned that no one wants to miss the reservation and people adopt unfair means to get the quota. But honestly do u believe that 100% of the seats are filled by such unscrupulous elements?? Further, if we fill all the loopholes than would not reservation be a boon rather than a bane as it is made out to be??

Getting an SC certi is just a small fry. Anyone can do it and people get it all the time but people also get caught too. And this has increased in recent years with many students/employees being disqualified after their certis were found to be fake. So things are not that bad either.

I believe rather than harping about the ills of reservation we should channelize our energies against other evils that plague the society.

As for bhai Anil Sangwan's statement, what conclusion needs to be reached?? As I mentioned jats already have reservation in Raj, Delhi and UP . Its only the jats in Haryana that needs to get reservation..This is the conclusion.

Regards,

Kuldeep

 

[annch]

And the debate goes on....
We are free to reach our own conclusions!!!
Regards,
Anju

Anjoo,

You are absolutely right. There are plenty of loopholes and people do exploit it. I will give you an interesting example:

Someone I know, adopted a unique way to bypass the income cap. His father divorced his mother (on paper) and the guy was shown as dependent on the alimony money. Thus he could avail the OBC quota.

Now as you have mentioned that no one wants to miss the reservation and people adopt unfair means to get the quota. But honestly do u believe that 100% of the seats are filled by such unscrupulous elements?? Further, if we fill all the loopholes than would not reservation be a boon rather than a bane as it is made out to be??

Getting an SC certi is just a small fry. Anyone can do it and people get it all the time but people also get caught too. And this has increased in recent years with many students/employees being disqualified after their certis were found to be fake. So things are not that bad either.

I believe rather than harping about the ills of reservation we should channelize our energies against other evils that plague the society.

As for bhai Anil Sangwan's statement, what conclusion needs to be reached?? As I mentioned jats already have reservation in Raj, Delhi and UP . Its only the jats in Haryana that needs to get reservation..This is the conclusion.

Regards,

Kuldeep

 

[kapdal]

Anjoo,

The creamy layer is excluded by putting a cap on the annual income of the family and while applying for a seat in an professional college or for job all these details are to be submitted. Currently the cap is 4.5LPA. If the income of the father is more than this the family falls in the creamy layer and hence no reservation.

Further, since 90% of our brethern are in villages and 10% in urban areas and are comfortably well off and obviously belong to the creamy layer all of them will not be able to enjoy the fruits of reservation and many seats would be vacant for people from the economically unsound background. { the figures of 90% and 10% -- i came across in this thread ; also the economic status of the jats who are city dewellers}

Another interesting point is -- jats in Rajasthan, Delhi and UP have already been declared as OBC...and if we consider the total population of jats then the majority is already in the OBC category and noone seems to mind it. Also, people from these states have really benefited from the OBC reservation. Reservation provided the push that they were lacking.

Moreover,some anti-reservation lobbyist equate reservation to not studying....i do not understand how they arrived at this conclusion!!

OBC reservation is not absolute...it has its checks and balances...like the income cap. It is the absolute reservation like for the SCs and STs which harms in the long run. Bcoz they know the reservation would always be there and the well off corner all the seats and hence even after providing reservation for six decades the condition of SCs is deplorable.

Regards,

Kuldeep


P.S. -- This post is in reply to Anjoo's post (even though it was not directed to me)and if she deems fit she can choose to reply or ignore ; others kindly resist from quoting.

Kuldeep,

Here are some comments:

1. Do you think anyone earning 4.5 lakh p.a. is so disadvantaged so as to need reservations? Doesn't he have a significant advantage over people earning less than 1 lakh? My family income was always below that threshold when I was a student and I never felt disadvantaged.

2. Proving your income as below threshold is anyways very easy as pointed out by Anju. In my engg. college, the threshold used to be 1/1.5 lakh for getting hostel and mess fees waived. Most of it was used by people whose parents were in business, or were self-employed or traditionally rich. These guys had bikes and computers and ate outside half the time, yet used this fee waiver. Moral of the story: If there is a benefit that can be used, it would be used. It is easier to fight for one’s principles than to live up to them.

I think if OBC reservation was available to me for entrance to my engg. college or to my B-school, I might have used it. And if I had any ego issues about it (The point being used to make fun of anti-reservationists even when they are not using it), trust me, my parents would have put enough pressure on me to take it. I am really curious to see who are all the great souls who are not going to have a free lunch just because there is enough food at home. The world would have been a much better place if people lived upto what they preach.

3. Your 10%/90% example for urban/rural is interesting. I don't know what is the basis for that figure. 30-70 which is also the national figure seems much more likely to me. But for the sake of argument we can go ahead with 10/90. However, it is not the case that there are 100 jats and 100 seats, such that 10 would go to rural and 90 would go to urban. If you look at no. of candidates and seats available, the case would be more like 100 jats and less than 5 seats. Who will get those 5 seats is anyone's guess.

Regards,
Kapil

 

[brainspeak]

And the debate goes on....
We are free to reach our own conclusions!!!
Regards,
Anju

yeah.. right

 

[pdpbeniwal]

JUST SAY 'NO' TO THE RESERVATION.....
And Sir Utha Ke Jiyo...Hum General Category Mein Hai...Aur Rahenge....Chahe Consequences Kuch Bhi Ho...:rock:rock:rock

 

[deepika]

Well please note all those people who seek reservation this guy who is saying this is the one studying in IIT,considered as one of the most prestigious institutes.A student needs to score good to make it to the IIT.Only those students who work hard can get admission there.Now a memeber who is studying there is telling you all to say "No" to reservation.Do you guys need anything else to change your views.Not only him but Kapil Dalal(IITian) and Anil Dala(IITian) also are against reservation.I know about only three of them but i am sure a lot more such well educated jatland members from some prestigious and reputed institutes are against reservation.So why not to make such people ideal and work hard rather then begging for reservation?

JUST SAY 'NO' TO THE RESERVATION.....
And Sir Utha Ke Jiyo...Hum General Category Mein Hai...Aur Rahenge....Chahe Consequences Kuch Bhi Ho...:rock:rock:rock

 

[ravichaudhary]

sooner or later we have to come on these terms burdakji...u...are an ifs officer...raviji is ca...but his clan n gaon is still not known to me...i simplly know that he is from western up, a ca...in canada...and ....till ...today wd not like to give his clan n village nnn alll that...without n e proper data how can we proceed further...

Please see:

http://www.jatland.com/home/Veerbhan

Ravi Chaudhary

 

[kapdal]

Well please note all those people who seek reservation this guy who is saying this is the one studying in IIT,considered as one of the most prestigious institutes.A student needs to score good to make it to the IIT.Only those students who work hard can get admission there.Now a memeber who is studying there is telling you all to say "No" to reservation.Do you guys need anything else to change your views.Not only him but Kapil Dalal(IITian) and Anil Dala(IITian) also are against reservation.I know about only three of them but i am sure a lot more such well educated jatland members from some prestigious and reputed institutes are against reservation.So why not to make such people ideal and work hard rather then begging for reservation?

Deepika- Appreciate your post. But I don't think this should be used as an argument. It only encourages ridiculous comments like "These people are better off and don't know the condition in villages and for their personal ego are harming the interest of the community". No one can argue that Jats lack merit or are backward as a caste. Quite a few Jats make it to top educational institutes and jobs every year on their own. And there are quite a few who miss it and join second tier institutes. Then there is the third type who don't manage to get into a govt. institute but their parents ensure that they join some private institute or go abroad. What is common between them is that most of them had access to reasonably good primary and secondary education and have an environment at home that emphasises educational achievement (for good or bad). Both these factors are almost non-existent at rural level.

For these three types of people, reservations would merely mean developing a feeling of entitlement and hence lesser effort. For those who doubt it, please see the difference between the general category and reserved category students in any educational institute. Overwhelming majority of reserved category students end up with low grades and under-achieve in their careers. The evidence can't be more clear. You can put that down to lesser effort at their end, inferiority complex or reverse discrimnation by the system against them.

So the first type who would have anyways made it would end up suffering with this albatross of reservation around their neck. A few of the second type would make it to top institutes and few of the third type would make it to second tier institutes. There would still be those who would choose the private/foreign route. One can argue that this way we will end up increasing the JAT share of seats (One can argue by how much. I think it would be marginal), but that is anyways more than offset by the under-achievement factor.

The people missing from the whole analysis are the poorer Jats from rural background. Overwhelming majority of these would achieve nothing from the whole exercise. They don't have the basic minimum primary education which is needed. Govt. apathy ensures that they don't have the primary education readily available. And they don't have the monetary resources (or sometimes the will) to go private. The rare exceptional student would still make it against all odds, but such examples are there even now. In general, most of the rural communtiy, whose interests are being touted here, would be crowded out by type 1, 2 and 3 from the more resourceful urban community. You can pick any OBC and you can see this phenomenon even now. The secretary of Mandal Commission has himself admitted it as mentioned in one of my earlier posts.

 

[pdpbeniwal]

Deepika- Appreciate your post. But I don't think this should be used as an argument. It only encourages ridiculous comments like "These people are better off and don't know the condition in villages and for their personal ego are harming the interest of the community". No one can argue that Jats lack merit or are backward as a caste. Quite a few Jats make it to top educational institutes and jobs every year on their own. And there are quite a few who miss it and join second tier institutes. Then there is the third type who don't manage to get into a govt. institute but their parents ensure that they join some private institute or go abroad. What is common between them is that most of them had access to reasonably good primary and secondary education and have an environment at home that emphasises educational achievement (for good or bad). Both these factors are almost non-existent at rural level.
For these three types of people, reservations would merely mean developing a feeling of entitlement and hence lesser effort. For those who doubt it, please see the difference between the general category and reserved category students in any educational institute. Overwhelming majority of reserved category students end up with low grades and under-achieve in their careers. The evidence can't be more clear. You can put that down to lesser effort at their end, inferiority complex or reverse discrimnation by the system against them.

So the first type who would have anyways made it would end up suffering with this albatross of reservation around their neck. A few of the second type would make it to top institutes and few of the third type would make it to second tier institutes. There would still be those who would choose the private/foreign route. One can argue that this way we will end up increasing the JAT share of seats (One can argue by how much. I think it would be marginal), but that is anyways more than offset by the under-achievement factor.

The people missing from the whole analysis are the poorer Jats from rural background. Overwhelming majority of these would achieve nothing from the whole exercise. They don't have the basic minimum primary education which is needed. Govt. apathy ensures that they don't have the primary education readily available. And they don't have the monetary resources (or sometimes the will) to go private. The rare exceptional student would still make it against all odds, but such examples are there even now. In general, most of the rural communtiy, whose interests are being touted here, would be crowded out by type 1, 2 and 3 from the more resourceful urban community. You can pick any OBC and you can see this phenomenon even now. The secretary of Mandal Commission has himself admitted it as mentioned in one of my earlier posts.

Hi,
The premise that people at the grassroots whose interests are being touted here will be deprived of the benefits of the reservations holds true not only for the JATS but for every community. So there is nothing specific which can be purported to keep the JATS out of the reservations.
So the repercussions of not listing the JATS for the reservations will only enlist that the resourceful JATS are not getting the benefits as compared to the resourceful people in the other communities.So, now, it seems to me more prudent that either eliminate the reservations entirely from the whole system or let the JATS also enjoy the ripen fruits.
And, the issues of poor performances and discrimination need to be separately weighed establishing a tradeoff between the advantages and the implications of the reservations.

 

[ravichaudhary]

Education, not just reservation

To go after reservation only, as a solution to all problems, by itself is not enough.

Children have to be prepared ,taught, to reach the level, where it can help, or be unnecessary.

See article below.

I had posted another article on this site, re a village in Bihar, which had an exceptional record in getting its children admitted to Institutes of higher learni

Take reservation by all means, it is a tool.

But we must work on getting better eduactionl resources to the rural areas

What will make the difference will be better education resources, not reservation.

Ravi Chaudhary
http://publication.samachar.com/pub...4|4604165|4604166|4604167|4604168&nextIndex=2

Bihar's 'Super 30' replicated; 74 students enter IITs
New Delhi, July 05: Replicating Bihar's 'Super 30' model in other parts of the country, an organisation that trains students from rural and impoverished backgrounds to enter IITs succeeded in sending 74 of its students to the coveted institutes this year.

The Dakshana Foundation, founded in India by a US-based Indian, operates in seven centres across the country and draws potential students from the government-run Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs), who are then funded and guided for the Indian Institutes of Technology.

Among the 350-strong first batch of students whose talents are spotted and aided by the foundation in 2007, 74 made it to the IITs this year, while another 155 were on the IIT-JEE Extended Merit List, making it to the AIEEEs.

"The endeavour, that came about in collaboration with the JNVs, aims to lend a helping hand to students who are potent enough to crack IIT exams but do not have the financial wherewithal to fund their coaching," said Monish Pabrai, the founder of the body at a felicitation ceremony here.

Dakshana's model was lifted from Patna-based Anand Kumar's 'Super 30' programme that coaches students from the rural and remotest areas of Bihar and Jharkhand and sends them to the country's most prestigious institutes.

"As it is not easy for the public sector to provide such services, the role of private philanthropy comes into play in such areas," said Montek Singh Ahluwalia, deputy chairman, Planning Commission.

Bureau Report

 

[sunnytewatia]

yes we need resrvaton. jaton ki bhalyee k liye chahie. jato uper utho

 

[rajivsp]

What will make the difference will be better education <s>resources</s><s><o></o></s> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Batang; panose-1:2 3 6 0 0 1 1 1 1 1; mso-font-alt:바탕; mso-font-charset:129; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1342176593 1775729915 48 0 524447 0;} @font-face {font-family:"Arial Black"; panose-1:2 11 10 4 2 1 2 2 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:647 0 0 0 159 0;} @font-face {font-family:"\@Batang"; panose-1:2 3 6 0 0 1 1 1 1 1; mso-font-charset:129; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1342176593 1775729915 48 0 524447 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:Batang;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->, not reservation.

Ravi Chaudhary

Ya Education - that the real thing to make a better/powerful society/community - but what is that??? This is a real question.

Better Education - Real Education - Which institute of the world will provide us THAT.

Hope here we are not talking of English Education that produces CLERKS or maximum MASTERS. I really hate both, specially Masters - Just Donkeys carrying loads of KNOWLEDGE.

80% of the world's wealth in the hands of 20% people and These 20% are less qualified than rest 80%. All highly qualified 80% are working for those 20%. {Our PM one of the most qualified person in the world is working for.............}

Question is who got the real EDUCATION - Ghanshyam Das Birla, Deeru Bhia Ambani, John D RockFeller, Steve Job, Bill Gates...................................................................................................

 

[kapdal]

Ya Education - that the real thing to make a better/powerful society/community - but what is that??? This is a real question.

Better Education - Real Education - Which institute of the world will provide us THAT.

Hope here we are not talking of English Education that produces CLERKS or maximum MASTERS. I really hate both, specially Masters - Just Donkeys carrying loads of KNOWLEDGE.

80% of the world's wealth in the hands of 20% people and These 20% are less qualified than rest 80%. All highly qualified 80% are working for those 20%. {Our PM one of the most qualified person in the world is working for.............}

Question is who got the real EDUCATION - Ghanshyam Das Birla, Deeru Bhia Ambani, John D RockFeller, Steve Job, Bill Gates...................................................................................................

Kuchh bhi ...."All highly qualified 80% are working for those 20%."..
Top 20% are less qualified while the rest 80% are highly qualified
Can you please define what is highly qualified and less qualified? The no. of graduates in the world won't be more than 50%. Post graduate less than 15%. And that is a very generous estimate.

Bhai sahab, cause and effect naam ki cheez hoti hai. Yeh to wahi baat ho gayi ki aaj subah meri shirt pe khaana gir gaya aur sensex 1000 point neeche gir gaya. Toh yaani jis bhi din meri shirt pe khana girega us din sensex 1000 point girega? The people you have mentioned had exceptional qualities (and luck as well) on their side. They didn't succeed because of LACK of education, they succeeded inspite of it. Like Lance Armstrong didn't become a Tour De France champion because of cancer, he became a champion inspite of it.

Aur aisa nahin hai ki yeh sab log anpadh the aur 2+2 nahin karr sakte the. Apne matlab ki padhaai un logon ne karr li thi. After that they went into business. It is no secret that enterpreneurship doesn't have any correlation with higher education. Par pehle aadmi ka itna exposure hona chaahiye ki woh business ke baare main soch sake. And no. of successful businessmen that you have listed won't be 20%. It would be less than 0.2%. It needs exceptional qualities as well as exceptional luck. For every 1 Ambani, there are 10000 who didn't get anywhere. You can't teach the masses to become businessmen. The ability to take risk comes from within. But you can provide them with education and resources so that they actually have a freedom of choice, whether to become clerks, doctors, engineers, conductors, farmers, businessmen or whatever.

PS: Your post and my rebuttal has nothing to do with the topic, but que sera sera.

 

[brainspeak]

Ya Education - that the real thing to make a better/powerful society/community - but what is that??? This is a real question.

Better Education - Real Education - Which institute of the world will provide us THAT.

Hope here we are not talking of English Education that produces CLERKS or maximum MASTERS. I really hate both, specially Masters - Just Donkeys carrying loads of KNOWLEDGE.

80% of the world's wealth in the hands of 20% people and These 20% are less qualified than rest 80%. All highly qualified 80% are working for those 20%. {Our PM one of the most qualified person in the world is working for.............}

Question is who got the real EDUCATION - Ghanshyam Das Birla, Deeru Bhia Ambani, John D RockFeller, Steve Job, Bill Gates...................................................................................................

the guys u mention...they might not have graduated from the most esteemed of the colleges but they were smart enough to recruit people who graduated from the top notch colleges....
Dhirubhai may not have been to a B-school but he sent his sons to best B-schools in the US...is not tht recognising importance of education nd of the masters degree?? moreover the managers they hire are not illiterate..
bill gates did not complete college...but he does not hire college dropouts...its pretty tough to get into microsoft....
ditto for apple...nd the business empires run by birla family nd the rockefellers...

the excuse/reason u have put fwd is a lame one and just promotes idle behaviour.

 

[rajivsp]

There is no excuse there is no Reason - just a simple question How to acquire such Education which is more than just a piece of paper. These People listed here can not be considered uneducated.

 

[rajivsp]

PS: Your post and my rebuttal has nothing to do with the topic, but que sera sera.

????
strange my post is nothing to do with the topic whereas this thread was started by me for the discussions about Entrepreneurship and Education not to make it the battlefield for anti and pro reservationists what it became ultimately. There were many threads already running for that purpose-then what was the purpose of this thread..................Entrepreneurship only buried in my first and second posts......HAHAHAHAHAHA i do really hate masters

 

[brainspeak]

There is no excuse there is no Reason - just a simple question How to acquire such Education which is more than just a piece of paper. These People listed here can not be considered uneducated.

hhmmm....maybe a more practical approach.....balance between theory nd practical classes...also updating the curriculum constantly..most importantly teacher training i.e teaching the teachers new methodology...what do u say??

 

[ravichaudhary]

Gentlemen

The impression from the first post is, that this thread is about reservation.

That is the impression I too have

If we go off topic, this thread will be locked.

Paweria ji

To discuss education, an important topic, please use another section.


Ravi Chaudhary
Moderator