Haryana and West UP

[drrajpalsingh]

Sir
Ch. Ajit Singh is only Jat Minister in Union Cabinet of India.
Otherwise there is no Jat minister .. Mahadeo Singh Khandela is minister of State that too for Tribal Affairs ..
At least Ch. Ajit Singh should have bargained for a better ministry like Rural Development,Panchayati Raj,Transport,Commerce or Agriculture that could have helped our community

Strange argument.

Are all central ministers National Leaders.

 

[narvir]

I am sorry friends for disturb you here in a serious discussion.
But anyone can tell me that what is the purpose of this discussion.

 

[abhisheksangwan]

Strange argument.

Are all central ministers National Leaders.

Sir
Centre mein jo Cabinet minister hai vo apne aap hi National leader ban gya ...
e.g. Mulayam represents only UP,Mamta represents only West bengal,Nitish Kumar only Bihar,Sharad Pawar only Maharashtra & most important Narendra Modi only Gujarat.
Agar yeh sab candidate Haryana se election ladna chahenge to haar jayenge ... Kehne to to yeh sab National leaders hain .
Manmohan Singh,P.Chidambaram,A.K. Antony & Pranab Mukherjee all are Rajya Sabha candidates ...They do not have public support still they are called national leaders.

Then from Jat Community,there is no national level leader..
In 2009 Lok Sabha,From Congress party
6 Jat MP were from Rajasthan
3 Jat MP were from Haryana
1 Jat MP were from Delhi
3 Jatt Sikh MP were from Punjab
There are Jat MP in Rajya Sabha also like Birender Singh

But only 2 candidates were given Minister of State post viz Mahadeo Singh Khandela(Rajasthan) & Praneet Kaur (Punjab)

There was no Cabinet Minister from our community in UPA-II before Ajit Singh's entry.
Then who is national level leader from our community ?

 

[swaich]

The more important question is that none of the jat led parties have cross state popularity. So even though western UP and Haryana, are culturally similar, RLD does first not have a base outside UP. Vice versa is true for Haryana parties.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

The more important question is that none of the jat led parties have cross state popularity. So even though western UP and Haryana, are culturally similar, RLD does first not have a base outside UP. Vice versa is true for Haryana parties.

No political party can sustain on the exclusive support of any specific caste. In the same way, cultural traits of a segment of society of UP-Haryana or any other two or more states, do not qualify for organizing them into one state.

 

[swaich]

No political party can sustain on the exclusive support of any specific caste. In the same way, cultural traits of a segment of society of UP-Haryana or any other two or more states, do not qualify for organizing them into one state.

I am not talking from the perspective of combining them into a single state. But I wanted to understand why in spite of a great similarity between groups and cultures between the two regions, no political party has been able to bridge the divide. RLD seems only popular in western UP. Whereas INLD and HVP are only specific to Haryana. At the same time we have a party like BSP which was able to unite Dalits across states. So one would expect some similarity in political expression of the Jats in two states. Is it that the Jats in the two states are divided and have not been able to bridge state lines? If they could unite under a common political party, its demands and issues will get a bigger voice and greater recognition.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Sir
Centre mein jo Cabinet minister hai vo apne aap hi National leader ban gya ...
e.g. Mulayam represents only UP,Mamta represents only West bengal,Nitish Kumar only Bihar,Sharad Pawar only Maharashtra & most important Narendra Modi only Gujarat.
Agar yeh sab candidate Haryana se election ladna chahenge to haar jayenge ... Kehne to to yeh sab National leaders hain .
Manmohan Singh,P.Chidambaram,A.K. Antony & Pranab Mukherjee all are Rajya Sabha candidates ...They do not have public support still they are called national leaders.

Then from Jat Community,there is no national level leader..
In 2009 Lok Sabha,From Congress party
6 Jat MP were from Rajasthan
3 Jat MP were from Haryana
1 Jat MP were from Delhi
3 Jatt Sikh MP were from Punjab
There are Jat MP in Rajya Sabha also like Birender Singh

But only 2 candidates were given Minister of State post viz Mahadeo Singh Khandela(Rajasthan) & Praneet Kaur (Punjab)

There was no Cabinet Minister from our community in UPA-II before Ajit Singh's entry.
Then who is national level leader from our community ?

None!!!

There is difference between a Jat leader and leader of the Jats!!!

In the same way there is a lot of difference between National leader and Member of Cabinet!!!

Did becoming Prime Minister Mr. I K Gujral acquire mantle of national Leader?

Minor correction i your record: Mr Pranab Mukeerji won Lok Sabha elections from West Bengal in the last general elections.
Defeat or victory in one particular election in a specific area does not matter much for the leaders in a democracy. Kindly note that even Smt. Indira Gandhi lost election to Shri Rajnarain in 1977 Lok Sabha elections. Did that electoral reverse disqualify her to much accepted stature of national leader.

Where do you place Ch. Shish Ram Ola, M P [Deputy Leader of Lok Sabha] according to criteria fixed by you?

Charismatic personality, mass appeal and vision to influence and convince people from cross state boundaries about the genuineness of his policy and programmes is the first ingredient that leads to emergence of a NATIONAL LEADER. Judge for yourself if somebody fits in this category.

Thanks

 

[drrajpalsingh]

I am not talking from the perspective of combining them into a single state. But I wanted to understand why in spite of a great similarity between groups and cultures between the two regions, no political party has been able to bridge the divide. RLD seems only popular in western UP. Whereas INLD and HVP are only specific to Haryana. At the same time we have a party like BSP which was able to unite Dalits across states. So one would expect some similarity in political expression of the Jats in two states. Is it that the Jats in the two states are divided and have not been able to bridge state lines? If they could unite under a common political party, its demands and issues will get a bigger voice and greater recognition.

Friend,

INLD or RLD are not exclusively Jat Parties of course they are led by the Leaders born in the Jat community but represent 36 biradaries in their areas of influence. Tagging them as Jat parties is a misnomer.

In addition, the political consciousness of the Jats transcends any specific party line. Over the years, the leaders belonging to the community have been playing sterling role in the Indian National Lok Dal, Rashtriya Lok Dal, BJP, Congress, SAD and so on so forth.

This state of affairs must not be construed as divide among the Jats. This shows their higher political consciousness and nationalist character.

 

[cutejaatsandeep]

I am sorry friends for disturb you here in a serious discussion.
But anyone can tell me that what is the purpose of this discussion.

bhai iska koi purpose nahi hai ye sirf timepass ke liye hai.....western up ke kuch parts western up se hi alag hai culture n language mai n they are comparing it to haryana...like agra mathura palwal aligarh yaha ki language haryana ke interior parts and muzaffarnagar meerut baghpat se bilkul alag hai..

 

[swaich]

Friend,

INLD or RLD are not exclusively Jat Parties of course they are led by the Leaders born in the Jat community but represent 36 biradaries in their areas of influence. Tagging them as Jat parties is a misnomer.

In addition, the political consciousness of the Jats transcends any specific party line. Over the years, the leaders belonging to the community have been playing sterling role in the Indian National Lok Dal, Rashtriya Lok Dal, BJP, Congress, SAD and so on so forth.

This state of affat not e construed as divide among the Jats. This shows their higher political consciousness and nationalist character.

True. That's one way iof looking at it. But having a party with overwhelming support of both the regions Jats would have made for a tremendous source of support and power.

 

[krishanpal]

Most of District of Western UP like Baghpat, Muzaffar Nagar, Bijnore, Gaziabad, some area of Meerut have similar cultural of Haryana interior District Rohtak. UP is a very big State having population 22 krore is equal to 12 time of Haryana. Therefore, Haryana and Western UP may make Strong and Very popular State instead making Harit Pradesh of Western UP. Jatt comunity having past experience of War in past time, but in the meantime of so called loktantra, they may think for better of way with making unity for strong influence in Central Politices. Out of total exice of Uttar Pradesh 70% excise is being recovered from Western UP and only 17% is being expended on Western UP.

 

[abhisheksangwan]

None!!!

There is difference between a Jat leader and leader of the Jats!!!

In the same way there is a lot of difference between National leader and Member of Cabinet!!!

Did becoming Prime Minister Mr. I K Gujral acquire mantle of national Leader?

Minor correction i your record: Mr Pranab Mukeerji won Lok Sabha elections from West Bengal in the last general elections.
Defeat or victory in one particular election in a specific area does not matter much for the leaders in a democracy. Kindly note that even Smt. Indira Gandhi lost election to Shri Rajnarain in 1977 Lok Sabha elections. Did that electoral reverse disqualify her to much accepted stature of national leader.

Where do you place Ch. Shish Ram Ola, M P [Deputy Leader of Lok Sabha] according to criteria fixed by you?

Charismatic personality, mass appeal and vision to influence and convince people from cross state boundaries about the genuineness of his policy and programmes is the first ingredient that leads to emergence of a NATIONAL LEADER. Judge for yourself if somebody fits in this category.

Thanks

Sir
You considered Ch. Devilal as National Leader but Bhupinder Singh Hooda defeated him 3 times from Rohtak Lok Sabha seat that too consecutively.

Lack of unity among Jats is responsible for this situation where we do not have any National level leader from our community.
As far as INLD,RLD or SAD is considered no matter they represent 36 biradris but we will always get Jat CM from these parties which is most important for survival of Jats in politics.
Otherwise everyone is aware that Congress or BJP can give non-Jat CM.
Jats can never forget anti-Jat policies of Bhajanlal & Ashok Gehlot (in present scenario)

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Sir
You considered Ch. Devilal as National Leader but Bhupinder Singh Hooda defeated him 3 times from Rohtak Lok Sabha seat that too consecutively.

Lack of unity among Jats is responsible for this situation where we do not have any National level leader from our community.
As far as INLD,RLD or SAD is considered no matter they represent 36 biradris but we will always get Jat CM from these parties which is most important for survival of Jats in politics.
Otherwise everyone is aware that Congress or BJP can give non-Jat CM.
Jats can never forget anti-Jat policies of Bhajanlal & Ashok Gehlot (in present scenario)

Friend,

In democracy defeat or victory is a part of political process. It is true Ch B S Hooda defeated Jananayak Chaudhary Devi Lal two times [not 3 times] but this did not deter the latter to remain at the centre stage of the national politics till he breathed his last ! He was a man of masses whose call to people was received with due attention in Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and in far flung areas of the deccan India. That is why he remains to be the last of the great national Jat leaders. He was Jat by caste not casteist leader who possessed charismatic character to influence the peoples' mind.

Moreover, his INLD candidate Ch. Inder Singh trounced Ch. B S Hooda in the subsequent Lok Sabha general elections.

You are also wrong to say that BJP and Congress give non Jat C Ms. Congress CMs. of Punjab P S Kairon, Gill, Darbara Singh; Bansi Lal, B.S, Hooda Haryana CMs; Paras Ram Madrena Rajasthan C.M.
Smt. Vasundhara Raje married in the Dholpur Jat Ruling house, BJP CM of Rajasthan.

My good friend, permit me to say that it would be in the fitness of things if you update yourself about the topic by studying relevant literature and then come to post your views with authentic data!

Thanks and blessings

 

[tarzon]

Before 1966 I don't think there was so much difference between West UP and East UP economically. Even East UP was more progressive at that time in comparison to West UP. West UP started the progress only after Green revolution.

Reason is that these Districts are backbone of U.P. , these Districts are income source of UP . Whole the money spend in east up was earned by west up .

 

[swaich]

bhai iska koi purpose nahi hai ye sirf timepass ke liye hai.....western up ke kuch parts western up se hi alag hai culture n language mai n they are comparing it to haryana...like agra mathura palwal aligarh yaha ki language haryana ke interior parts and muzaffarnagar meerut baghpat se bilkul alag hai..

You are right. When you say western UP which is similar to Haryana you mean the areas of the upper doab like Moradabad, Baghpat etc. The areas you are talking about is known as Braj (Mathura, Agra) is indeed different from Haryana or the Khari boli spoken in parts of western UP. Check the following link for more clarity:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/UP_region_map.gif

 

[tarzon]

In Haryana itself we can find 2-3 variant. Like Faridabad, Gurgaon, Ballabgarh, Palwal, Hodal, Mewat their dailect is bot different and more closer to the dialect of Aligarh, Bulandsahar Mathura and Agra.

Ambala, Panchkula and adjoining district to Punjab have Punjabi touch.

The adjoining district of Rajshthan like Mahendergarh etc have Rajshthani touch.

The dialect in Haryanvi have many variant like in aday kaday uday, eit utt kit, inghay unghay kinghay (used in Merrut, Bagpat Muzzafarnagar area, might be in some part of Haryana as well ) munnay tannay, majhay tajhay, humbay, aaho and many more from different area of Haryana and West UP.

so these word vary from area to area but we still call them part of one culture, which spread from Haryana to many district of West UP.

bhai iska koi purpose nahi hai ye sirf timepass ke liye hai.....western up ke kuch parts western up se hi alag hai culture n language mai n they are comparing it to haryana...like agra mathura palwal aligarh yaha ki language haryana ke interior parts and muzaffarnagar meerut baghpat se bilkul alag hai..

 

[nrao]

Dr Rajpal Singh,

Thank you. This is very good information. As it is becoming more acceptable that Saraswati river was indeed flowing through Haryana and Vedas were composed here as well. Do you think there were Jats present at that time around Saraswati and find mention in Ved?

Haryana is cradle of the Indian culture and civilisation where mantras of the Vedas were enchanted first at the banks of the River Saraswati. {The river was considered most mighty as to the volume of water it carried and venerated more profusely then the Ganges in the yore}. The famous battle of Bharata known as Mahabharata, three battles of Panipat, Battles of Tarain 1191-92, Battle of Karnal 1739 and peoples rise against the British occupation of the region since 1803 onwards is the testimony of the existence of this prime land in the forefront of the national polity! What more identity is required to prove than this. The Palam Boali Inscription contains its name as Haryana. Thanesar [now Kurukshetra] was the seat of power of Harashvardhan Pushyabhuti.

Above all, this is the place where SriKrishana delivered the immortal sandesh contained in the Gita!

Political expediency denied bifurcation of Uttar Pradesh in 1956 because Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, the Prime Minister and Pt. Govind Ballbh Pant, the then Home Minister wanted not to weaken the hold of UP on national politics. Moreover, the fertile area comprising western UP district is the wheat and rice bowl of Hilly area of the State. Their inclusion in Haryana would have led to adverse impact on economy of the state too.

No doubt, geographical demarcation of Haryana of the past years remained embedded in the minds of people, political entity of Haryana was tried to be eliminated by parceling out its territories to several Sikh Rulers, and cutting off Delhi district from it, and severing it from NW United Provinces and tagging major part of Haryana with the then Punjab state as a part of punishment to the people of Haryana for their participation in the First War of Indian Independence faught in 1857-58.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dr Rajpal Singh,

Thank you. This is very good information. As it is becoming more acceptable that Saraswati river was indeed flowing through Haryana and Vedas were composed here as well. Do you think there were Jats present at that time around Saraswati and find mention in Ved?

Friend,

I have no hesitation in admitting that I am no authority on the Vedas!

Thanks.

 

[anilsangwan]

हैः मेरे यारो .... या भी के बात हुयी..... हरयाणा आर वेस्टर्न यूपी ऩे एक साथ ल्यावन का एक ए तरीका स...... रिश्तेदारी करो आपस में ज्यादा तें ज्यादा...... एर इस तें मेल मिलाप बढेगा ..... एक दुसरे के बारे में जो गलत धारणा सें वो बदलेंगे .... एर जब दस पन्द्राह साल में इसा काम हो जागा आक दोनों साइड के लोग मिल के एक पार्टी ऩे समर्थन करो..... इनका तो बाप भी सोचन पे मजबूर हो जागा.... आक जाट नहीं तो धरती तें खो देंगे....!!!

 

[drrajpalsingh]

In Haryana itself we can find 2-3 variant. Like Faridabad, Gurgaon, Ballabgarh, Palwal, Hodal, Mewat their dailect is bot different and more closer to the dialect of Aligarh, Bulandsahar Mathura and Agra.

Ambala, Panchkula and adjoining district to Punjab have Punjabi touch.

The adjoining district of Rajshthan like Mahendergarh etc have Rajshthani touch.

The dialect in Haryanvi have many variant like in aday kaday uday, eit utt kit, inghay unghay kinghay (used in Merrut, Bagpat Muzzafarnagar area, might be in some part of Haryana as well ) munnay tannay, majhay tajhay, humbay, aaho and many more from different area of Haryana and West UP.

so these word vary from area to area but we still call them part of one culture, which spread from Haryana to many district of West UP.

Cultural ties would be further cemented if one pays heed to Anil Sangwan's suggestion : " हरयाणा आर वेस्टर्न यूपी ऩे एक साथ ल्यावन का एक ए तरीका स...... रिश्तेदारी करो आपस में ज्यादा तें ज्यादा...... एर इस तें मेल मिलाप बढेगा ..... एक दुसरे के बारे में जो गलत धारणा सें वो बदलेंगे ..."

Are there any takers of the idea?

Thanks.