How brawl between army officers, jawans at Leh started

jagmohan said:
Dear All,

No one can insult me without my permission. I don’t get provoked by anything on a public portal because I believe we all are related to each other, one way or the other. However, in my 10th year here on JATLAND there is only one question that I have not yet got an answer to. And that is; why are people so rigid and why do we start making personal comments just because we don’t agree to each others view? May be it is in our DNA. Anyway, it doesn’t bother me at all because I never take things personally.

The service in defence services is still considered to be a matter of pride for very many young people of our country. There is intense competition to get into National Defence Academy (NDA). Hundreds of thousand appear for the written exam. Finally few hundred are selected. So let us not dismiss the defence services with few backhand comments that are often made by educated members. Enough idiots are available in plenty in every sphere of life and profession. Thankfully I have by now seen 21 years of Army service and about 12 years of civil life. Let me not compare the two. Each one has its advantages. There are moments to feel proud and dejected in each service. You meet an idiot everyday in each service. Sometime one feels that bigger the idiot, more senior he has become or will become. Given another shot at life I would like to relive it exactly the way I have done so, so far.

Now coming to the incident in LEH & Samba! I can’t comment till the time I read the court of inquiry and summary of evidence. But one thing I can straight away agree to and that is that there was failure of command. The Colonels who were in charge failed in their duties because it is the officers who make or break the ‘Paltan’. A good commanding officer will ensure that his command is well cared for in every aspect and respect. In a society that has become materialistic, it is not easy to serve under extreme conditions as they prevail in the ‘fauj’. The acute shortage of officers (what ever be the reason) has meant officers having to take on additional responsibilities. What this means in an anti insurgency environment can’t be explained on a web portal.

Should anyone want to carry out a serious discussion on these issues without any prejudice, let us fix a date and time and meet on the India Gate lawns, New Delhi.

Best regards,

Jagmohan
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Dear Jagmohan, for insulting no body gives an application to seek your permission, it is different thing weather you understand the insult or not, or you ignore due to some reasons or do not want to make it a public issue due to some reasons, anyway, it is good to know your nature, I am sorry that I mentioned your name, because, the way your post was replied I felt bad but any way it is good that you are ok with such expressions, good to see a jat and an army officer being so adjustable and deplomatic. regards
 
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ssgoyat said:
If you don't have answers to questions, why you even bother to attempt. You get personal, start calling names (Fox, kadus), and make things ugly for yourself, further degrade your worthiness to this forum. And i don't think your behavior has ever earned you any respect here at jatland. you've been bashed many number of time by other members as well, but you are unwilling to learn from mistakes.

If you feel disrespected upon being asked questions, that's your problem. No body can help it.

Better get on to business, answer the questions, if you can or have to. This is the genuine problem of leadership that army is facing now. If you can contribute in the debate, it'll be appreciated.
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Batter keep yourself away, things may become serious which may not be good for anybody.
 
Fateh said:
Batter keep yourself away, things may become serious which may not be good for anybody.
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You first give a name of disrespect to hide your inability/willingness to answer questions, then call names, and when requested repeatedly to come to the point. Now you say, keep yourself away. If such was the case, you should have admitted your inability at the very first place. Why all this dramma and wastage of time.
 
Dear Jagmohan ji,

Thank you for your balanced post. I wish to hear specifically on the topics. Pls no other distracting stories. I don't mean no disrespect to anybody (and that includes Mr. Fateh as well, though he provokes always. But soon i'll also loose my patience), but these are the topics catching attention of civilians after being reported repeatedly in the newspapers.

1. I can wait for your comments on this issue: Dark Side of Army, soft on officers, harsh on jawans.
2. I regret my unavailability,as i live in Pune.
3. Do you know any govt organisation other than the Indian Army that has this Sahayak system (officially)?
4. Besides Indian Army & Pakistan Army (that still operates on British pattern: where Angrej officers used to came from upper class) what all other armies in the world that still have batman ship practice?
5. What are the official duties of Batman. Can you list it down here, for our knowledge.
6. Fundamentals to Institutions change with time, hopefully this practice will be done away soon. the government is seriously considering to lift up the moral of troops, having witnessed bad incidents. Bad rats are misusing this facility and bringing bad names to the army.

Some facts, i searched over google :-

1. Indian Navy, Indian Air Force have already done away with Batman practise.
2. French Army: Batmen were abolished after World War II
3. Italian Army: Attendente were eventually abolished in 1971.
4. Russia & Soviet Union: positions were abolished in the post-Revolutionary Soviet Union
5. United States: Enlisted aides are available to support some of the needs of General officers who serve in command positions in the rank of Major General and above, and their equivalent naval ranks. These aides "perform tasks and details that, if performed by general or flag officers, would be at the expense of the officer’s primary military and official duties." However, their assistance is restricted to only those tasks which are directly related to an officer's official duties. Federal law prevents an enlisted soldier from serving as a servant.

A batman's duties often include:
acting as a "runner" to convey orders from the officer to subordinates
maintaining the officer's uniform and personal equipment as a valet
driving the officer's vehicle, sometimes under combat conditions
acting as the officer's bodyguard in combat
other miscellaneous tasks the officer does not have time or inclination to do

The action of serving as a batman was referred to as "batting". In armies where officers typically came from the upper class
 
Dear Satinder,

Greetings!

I didn't notice that you were located in Pune. May I suggest you something with all sincerity. Pune is a place where numerous military units are located. Is it possible for you to visit them? Do you know officers serving in Pune? Do you know some retired officers residing in Pune? What I am trying to suggest is that please interact with them. Have a nice discussion with them and ask these questions. I am sure they will be more than glad to answer. You can also visit one of the Infantry Units posted in Pune. I am sure you can find a way to spend some time even with the Jawans. Speak to them. There is no way I can make you understand the logic of having the Sahayak system in the Army in this form using this media.

However, I did some research. There was a blog written by a retired brigadier. I googled and found this 2012 blog by Brig Mahalingam. You may like to go through the same.

blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../abolish-sahayaks-only-at-the-cost-of-organizational-


Best regards,

JS Malik
 
ssgoyat said:
You first give a name of disrespect to hide your inability/willingness to answer questions, then call names, and when requested repeatedly to come to the point. Now you say, keep yourself away. If such was the case, you should have admitted your inability at the very first place. Why all this dramma and wastage of time.
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As per your certificate, I am good for nothing, so how can you expect any good answer from me, secondly I am not interested to answer your questions and get involved with you, so live me alone please
 
jagmohan said:
Dear Satinder,

Greetings!

I didn't notice that you were located in Pune. May I suggest you something with all sincerity. Pune is a place where numerous military units are located. Is it possible for you to visit them? Do you know officers serving in Pune? Do you know some retired officers residing in Pune? What I am trying to suggest is that please interact with them. Have a nice discussion with them and ask these questions. I am sure they will be more than glad to answer. You can also visit one of the Infantry Units posted in Pune. I am sure you can find a way to spend some time even with the Jawans. Speak to them. There is no way I can make you understand the logic of having the Sahayak system in the Army in this form using this media.

However, I did some research. There was a blog written by a retired brigadier. I googled and found this 2012 blog by Brig Mahalingam. You may like to go through the same.

blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../abolish-sahayaks-only-at-the-cost-of-organizational-


Best regards,

JS Malik
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Dear Jagmohanji,

Unfortunately
1. I'm a civilian who will not be allowed to enter into cantonment area. Any officer will anyways justify the necessity of shayak's, as they render free services, with no questions asked, nor they have the guts to ask or complain.
2. I don't have time to find and knock doors of jawans and officers.
3. The link given by you could not be found. Also, it would have been good had it been a jawan's link. But they're not computer literate to voice their feelings, and present it to people by and large.

this reminds me of your admirer Jit Takhar's quote: "Until lions have their own historians, tales of the hunt shall always glorify the hunter"

The last time i talked to a sahayak, belonged to my friend's father, a serving Lt. Col, who used to slog like a pig while working for the construction of his private bunglow.

Could you rather help me in finding some sahayaks in pune (im sure you would have lot of officer friends who have settled down in pune), who are not afraid to speak freely. Offcourse, only a retired one's can do so. And i can put their unedited video's to make you understand, though they obey happily for such officers, but deep down inside they hate such officers a lot for their misuse.

Till that time, you may like to answer a few of my questions, if you feel like.
 
This may be Off Topic , however would like to say something .


I know some real time stories where an IITian dropped IIT to join Air force . Guys try hard n harder to get into defence services .
Craze of being part of defence services is no less than being an IAS . I once asked somebody ----its too harsh life , u need to follow orders without any questions asked ,
stay away from family , no festival vacations Corporate is way too better .
Answer I have got----Dear only one thing " HONOR " . ( He is still working at middle management level , could not make it to defence services after multiple attempts )


PS : Please do not judge me , I have no defence background , neither I know anyone closely .
 
post no 18 part -2
a) lack of required physical and mental toughness.
b) family problem at home.
c) other countries do try to weaken defence forces directly or indirectly, through media/spy net work or individuals who are working for them.
d) ill treatment/immature behaviour by NCOs, JCOs and officers.
e) it is noticed that JCOs always tries to create differences between jawans and officers.
f) Biased action/favourateism or ignoring marit in various important decisions by seniors.
g) Display of un officer like qualities and specially dishonest act by officers.
h) Employing subordinates for unauthorised work including sahayaks.
i) failear of command at various levels.
j) use of foul language by seniors.
k) putting false allegations against each others.
l) remours do harm the autmosphere in the organization.
m) poor quality of intake as jawans as well as officers.
n) Denying of authorised leave or some other facility without any solid reason.
o) unauthorised punishment, repeatedly.
p) wrong or impractical orders by seniors, repeatedly
q) misuse of power and position by seniors.

Generally, these are reasons in brief for such problems, ofcourse there may be some other reason for some paticular incident. A line of an old song is applicable here also--

Sada hoti aai ladai zar, zoru or zamin par. ( power, woman and wealth)

Since, I donot know the details of these two incidents I cannot comment please, mr jaspreet, if you have any perticular question, please let me know I shall try
 
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