Jat - Identity and Social Status

DrRajpalSingh said:
Friends,

Your valuable contribution on the etymology and identity of the word 'Jat' is appreciable and in view of its significance in understanding the roots of the Jat, it has been suggested by a number of participants to shift the relevant posts to the thread : http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...Jat-amp-Their-Social-Status-through-the-Ages; so that future reference to them becomes easier.

May we should shift some of the posts throwing light on this aspect of history of Jats to the suggested thread or not ?
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I feel we should shift it in thread where we were discussing issue of Gupta kings being Dharan Jats rather in a more general as etymology of word Jat.

I think it was Historical references contained in various texts regarding word Jat where this question was first asked to Rana Saheb.
 
Undoubtedly, Gupta dynasty belonged to Dharan Gotra [A Gotra of modern Jats too] as testified by Probhavati's copper plate inscriptions.
 
narenderkharb said:
Rana Saheb

It seems you have rightly explained Vanshaadhaya as Sandhisamaasa of Vansh and Aadhya

Here I want a litttle clarification....

Whether Aadhya(endower/Posser) word used in AMSMK can only used in money matters as in dhannadhya धनाढय or it can be used in other qualities/virtues also like gunn meaning virtue as gunnadhya गुनाढय etc ?


Further.. What is the natutre of words Jaat and Aadhya used in AMSMK ....Are they verb ,noun ,adjective or adverb..???
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Narendra Ji,

Yes, aadhya can be suffixed to many terms to indicate excellence (superlative degree). The two

examples given by you are quite illustrative of the meaning of aadhya .The present term as a

compound form would mean Having become (Jaata) most excellent (aadhya) in the family

(vansha).

jaata=the root jani, (net form, jan -to be)+ the suffix kta (net form, ta ), meaning having

become excellent in the family. The full compound term is used as an adjective of the person

under discussion.
 
narenderkharb said:
One more question ..

मथुरायाम......Is it in.... Mathura ....or Of Matura ?
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The Sanskrit text , as you can see, has the reading Madhuraayaam. It is generally taken to stand for Mathuraa, the legendary

city. Incidently 'Madhura' as you know, means 'sweet'. We all know about the phrase 'Mathuraa ke Pede' And I won't stretch itf

further only because I did not regret when I tasted the delicacy for the first time long back.

Well, this is in lighter vein. Let us proceed on our search.

'Madhuraayam' would mean 'in Mathuraa'.
 
Let us have a look on dictionary meaning of the word Jat : (jät)n.
A member of a peasant caste residing in the Punjab and other areas of northern India and Pakistan, comprising Muslim,Hindu, and Sikh groups.________________________________________

[Hindi jāṭ, from Middle Indic *jaṭṭa-; probably akin to Sanskrit Jartikaḥ, name of a tribe.]

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.


Kindly note Hindi and Sanskrit variants of the noun Jat.

Your valuable comments are invited.
 
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DrRajpalSingh said:
Undoubtedly, Gupta dynasty belonged to Dharan Gotra [A Gotra of modern Jats too] as testified by Probhavati's copper plate inscriptions.
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Y-Dna Haplogroups, the paternal lineages

Bains Jatts =R2
Virk Jatts =R1a1a

Vaisya, Banya Gupta =H1*
Jatav (mainly) =H1a
Chamar (mainly) =H1a
 
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paulgill said:
It is like a tree, at the base there is only one trunk [ancestor], then the branches [sons], and then these branches also have sub-branches [grandsons], so on and so forth. You can treat the Q1a as the trunk of the tree and looking just at the trunk it is not possible to tell what kind of a fruit it bears.

Jatt ethnic group is in no way as old as these basic haplogroups are, so this problem cannot be solved with basic haplogroups, we need to know the branches and sub branches, etc to separate the wheat from the chaff. In the case of a distinct haplogroup, say an African A00 haplogroup if found in a Jatt will immediately tell one that the guy is in no way a Jatt, but in the case of a shared haplogroup like R1a, one will have to look into its sub branches. Y-Dna results of all groups who use gathwala gotra be needed to find out if they are related or not, gotra can be adopted but the Y-Dna can't be adopted.

There is also a little bit of this H1a found among Jatts and one source of this could be the Bheel and Kol etc. who were promoted to the status of Rajputs by Brahmins to use them against Jatts and Gujjars, and these Rajputs of these origins now may have found their way into Jatts and Gujjars by acceptance etc., or are just posing as Jatts when in fact they are the rajputs of Bheel or Kol origin etc................
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Kindly permit me to insert one relevant post on the formation of Jat Community/caste from a famous historian's mouth as noted below :

On the Jats of Rajasthan, Dr. Dashrath Sharma in Rajasthan Through the Ages Vol 1, [1966 Jaipur], p. 448 writes :

"....It is not unlikely that many of the [ancient] republican people might have contributed to the formation of the present Jat caste. some becoming Rajputs and other remaining Jats according to their circumstances and predilections."

He goes on to state :"By temperament they are unorthodox, and this more than anything else marks them out from Rajputs."

In the footnote 4 of the same page, Dr. Sharma has added : "Many Jats have same gotra, as the Rajputs e.g. Gahlot, Dahima, Panwar, Mor, Solanki and Tanwar. We regard the Dharans as belonging to the Gotra of the Imperial Guptas."
 
Yes, Dr. Dasharath Sharma has made a very significant observation. His hunch that the nomenclatures jat like Rajput are later day developments as a result of the bifurcation of a common stock due to circumstances and predilections which he restricts to gaining of or being deprived of political power. I think this spelling out is not only presumptive but also based on the vague estimation. He has not been able to concentrate on the nomenclature ‘Jat’ as much as required. The nomenclature Rajput on the other hand came handy linguistically to explain away the emerging cantours of the Rajputs as a community. Since he rightly demonstrates the commomonality of the two by citing so many gotras shared by the two he could have gone a little further to trace the term jat linguistically. But perhaps, the overpowering impact of the Sanskritic origin school kept him focused in the same direction.
Similar has been the fait of the penetrating mind of Risley when he merely says (People of India, p.126) that the tribes like …Jat …. Transformed into caste at a recent date. But he too missed the substance in trying to describe the form(label). I believe people now called Jat have at no stage of Indian history shown characteristics of a tribe. So to that extant risley has missed the point. Both Risley and Dasharath Sharma could not spell out clearly why the nomenclatures Jat and rajput were very late developments. But if we believe Westphals couple in believing the term Jat to be of non Indic origins our path is well paved. The Sanskrit connections sought to be brought about by faulty explanations of some ppaninian texts and a few other terms sounding similar no more stand the close scrutiny of Paninian grammar and Sanskrit diction.
 
Professor Dasharatha Sharma (1903–1976) was an Indologist and a noted expert in the history of the Rajasthan. He received a Doctor of Literature (D. Litt.) for his thesis Early Chauhan Dynasties. His noted monograph Early Chauhan Dynasties was first published in 1959

We have some content taken from Professor Dasharatha Sharma's Early Chauhan Dynasties on Jatland. Many Jat clans in Rajasthan and Haryana were Integral part of Chauhan Federation. He has beautifully explained the caste system of that period. You can read on Jatland here -

http://www.jatland.com/home/Chauhan_Social_System

According to him Jats had Uncertain position in the caste system along with Ahirs, Kayasthas, Khtris, Gurjars etc. He writes on Jats at p.280

The residence of the Jats was in the northern part of the Chauhan dominions, and they appear to have had a share in the struggle for independence waged by the Chauhans after the defeat and death of Prithviraja III. It is not unlikely that many of the early republican people might have contributed to the formation of the present Jat caste, some becoming Rajputs and the others remaining Jats according to their circumstances and predilections. [66] ..... By temperament they are unorthodox; and this more than anything else marks them out from the Rajputs.

66. Many Jats have the same Gotras, as the Rajputs, e.g., Gahlot, Dahima, Panwar, Mor, Solanki, Yadava and Tanwar. I regard the Dharanas as belonging to the gotra of the Imperial Guptas.
 
Dr. Dasharath Sharma served as lecturer in history for number of yearsin Hindu college, Delhi. Then he was appointed as Reader in the department ofhistory of the University of Delhi fromwhere he ultimately retired. <o:p></o:p>
He was a good scholar of Sanskrit as well. He was a regular con,tributorto research journals dealing with issues of Sanskrit inscriptions. He wasresponsible for amending several misinterpretations of Sanskrit texts ininscriptions. He was one of the pioneers in settling the identification ofChandra of the Mehrauli Iron pillar inscription. <o:p></o:p>
He also established that the same inscription was not posthumous. It wasrather got inscribed by Chandra himself. Many scholars, as he demonstrated,missed the correct and literary aspect of the poetical text of the Inscription.<o:p></o:p>
Dr. Dasharath Sharma was the first scholar topoint out, on the basis of the Poona Copper plate inscription of Prabhawati Guptathat gotra of the Guptas was Dhaarana.<o:p></o:p>
I had the privilege ofmeeting him on many occasions and discuss issues of Sanskrit epigraphy. Therewere times when every successive issue of Epigraphica Indica was awaited for the‘Epigraphical notes’ of epigraphists like Dashrath Sharma, Jagan Nath Agrawal and B.Ch. Chhabra. Weremember him as a great Jat protagonist. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
 
Ranasahab has provided a very good hint about the origin of word Jat in his comment -

"Jat to be of non Indic origins our path is well paved".

We may keep our journey to search the exact origin of word Jat !!!
 
drssrana2003 said:
Dr. Dasharath Sharma was the first scholar topoint out, on the basis of the Poona Copper plate inscription of Prabhawati Guptathat gotra of the Guptas was Dhaarana.<o:p></o:p>

I had the privilege of meeting him on many occasions and discuss issues of Sanskrit epigraphy. Therewere times when every successive issue of Epigraphica Indica was awaited for the‘Epigraphical notes’ of epigraphists like Dashrath Sharma, Jagan Nath Agrawal and B.Ch. Chhabra. Weremember him as a great Jat protagonist. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
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Then this information may be incorrect. http://www.jatland.com/home/Bains
 
paulgill said:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=0

On that sheet line 67, you see a Dixit Brahman Bihar, India (Z94/L342+ L657+ Y9+ Y7- Y2351+ Y2353+ Y2392+)

Line 209 Jatt Muslim Pansota, Toba Tek Singh, possibly Hoshiarpur (Z94+ L657+Y9+ Y7+) (Bhatti maternal)

These two have a common ancestor Y9, even when one is a Brahmin and the other one is a Jatt, children of the same father Y9, after that one is Y7- and the other one is Y7+, cousins now. This Jatt is related to this Brahmin around R-Y9V4070/Y9 formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybp, see http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y9/

<style type="text/css"><!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}--></style>Line 418 Shah Gujarati (Z94/L342+ L657+ Y9+ Y7+)

Line 444 <style type="text/css"><!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}--></style>Malayali <style type="text/css"><!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}--></style>R1a1a1b2a1a* (R-Y7)

Now see this Shah and Malayali are even more closely related to Line 209 Jatt Muslim Pansota, Toba Tek Singh, possibly Hoshiarpur (Z94+ L657+Y9+ Y7+) (Bhatti maternal) than the above Brahmin.

As all 3 are Y7+, and this means that this Y7 person, is the father of these 3 people now belonging to three different communities, all are the sons of just this one Y7 father. And this is how we can sort out the relationship of the individuals and groups or communities.

Also see http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y7/, R-Y7V4155/Y7 formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 3100 ybp.

But these R1a>>Y7 Jatts are related to other J2 Jatts only about 45000 ybp, and to L-M357 Jatts about 44000 ybp.

One thing to keep in mind is, that all Jatts are not the children of one ancestors but various tribes, that came to be known as Jatts later on sometime, and that time line can be determined like in the example above.
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Another Brahmin at Y7 level, so no distinction between this Brahmin group and R1a-Y7+ Jatts at that level as they have the same ancestor [father].
 
lrburdak said:
Ranasahab has provided a very good hint about the origin of word Jat in his comment -

"Jat to be of non Indic origins our path is well paved".

We may keep our journey to search the exact origin of word Jat !!!
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Whether you are taking about Jat community or the word Jat or both to be 0f non Indic origin, kindly enlighten.
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
Whether you are taking about Jat community or the word Jat or both to be 0f non Indic origin, kindly enlighten.
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undoubtedly we are talking here about the term Jat or the 'Label' used later for a particular community which was part and parcel of a larger group, say doing the occupation of agriculture. Surely we have sevrqal terms right from the Vedic times derscribing such people, e.g. Krishaka, karshaka, Krishivala, kutumbi etc. So when w2e call a certain group as 'Jat' today we should not take for granted that their ancestors were also called by the same label. This is what Dr. Dasharatha Sharma, H.Risley and some others are saying.
 
drssrana2003 said:
undoubtedly we are talking here about the term Jat or the 'Label' used later for a particular community which was part and parcel of a larger group, say doing the occupation of agriculture. Surely we have sevrqal terms right from the Vedic times derscribing such people, e.g. Krishaka, karshaka, Krishivala, kutumbi etc. So when w2e call a certain group as 'Jat' today we should not take for granted that their ancestors were also called by the same label. This is what Dr. Dasharatha Sharma, H.Risley and some others are saying.
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Thanks Dr. Rana. Could you share further from where and how the word Jat from non Indic source first appeared ! This would help us in removing many a misconceptions and misunderstanding on the Origin of the word Jat.
 
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