Jat- the term origins, history, etymology etc

[drssrana2003]

Jat - the term origins, history, etymology etc

Rigveda (X.27.1), (III.15.5), (VIII.100.4) mention about a tribe Jarita (जरित) in following verses:

असत सु मे जरितः साभिवेगो यत सुन्वते यजमनय शिक्षम |
अनाशीर्दामहमस्मि परहन्ता सत्यध्व्र्तं वर्जिनायन्तमाभुम || Rigveda (X.27.1)[9]


अछिद्रा शर्म जरितः पुरूणि देवानछा दीद्यानः सुमेधाः |
रथो न सस्निरभि वक्षि वाजमगने तवं रोदसीनः सुमेके || Rigveda (III.15.5)


अयमस्मि जरितः पश्य मेह विश्वा जातान्यभ्यस्मि मह्ना |
रतस्य मा परदिशो वर्धयन्त्यादर्दिरो भुवना दर्दरीमि || Rigveda (VIII.100.4)

We need to translate these verses in English to know what this Jarita tribe was !

Ranasaheb is requested to do a favour in the matter.

LAXMAN JI,
Given below is Griffith's translation of the first two mantras:

Lighting Gods hither, Agni, wisest singer, bring to us many and flawless shelters.
Bring vigour, like a car gathers booty:
bring us, O Agni, beauteous earth and heaven.(rgveda III.15.5)

This, singer, is my firm determination,to aid the worshiper who pours the soma.
Islay the man who brings no milk oblations, unrighteous, powerful, the truth perverter. (Rgveda X.27.1)

The Devata of Rgveda VIII.100.4 is Indra. The mantra extols his qualities. The term jaritah as can be seen has been translated as 'singer'.The
Avadhi or the later Hindi meaning does not appear to fit in here.Iam not able to make further comment at this stage.Incidentally there are a few typographical errors in the Sanskrit mantras quoted above which I can not correct as my computer here has no Devanagari font.
Regrds
s.s.rana
s.s.rana

 

[lrburdak]

Thanks Rana Saheb for translation,

For devanagari typing computer will not help but you can use our Jatland Wiki URL -

http://www.jatland.com/home/हिन्दी_में_कैसे_लिखें

 

[drssrana2003]

Jat - the term origins, history, etymology etc.

We have complete Yaska's Nirukta ed. by L. Sarup at URL:

http://tiger.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/mtokunag/skt_texts/nir.txt

I reproduce from this URL the phrase we are discussing जाटय आटनारो:

1,14.yatho.etad.yathaa.ca.api.pratiita.arthaani.syus.tathaa.enaany.aacakSiirann.iti.

1,14.santy.alpa.prayogaah.kRto.apy.aikapadikaa.yathaa.vratatir.damuunaa.jaaTya.aaTNaaro.jaagaruuko.darvihomii.iti

1,7.jaritaa.garitaa

We have one more source available about this phrase at URL:

http://vedavid.org/nirukta/N1.html

etenaivottaraH pratyuktaH |

yatho etad.h yathaa chaapi pratiitaarthaani syustatheinaanyaachakshiiranniti santyalpaprayogaaH kR^ito'pyaikapadikaa yathaa vratatirdamuunaa jaaTya aaTNaaro jaagaruuko darvihomiiti |

Laxman ji,
The term ‘jaritaa’ is nominative case singular of the nominal stem ‘jaritri( final ‘ri’ as in prithu). It occurs in dative case ( Sampradaana kaaraka) singular in the mantra Rgveda- II.11.21 found at I.6 of the URL given here by you.Griffith’s translation of the same is given below:
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
Now let that wealthy cow of thine, O Indra, yield in return a boon to him who lauds thee (jaritre).<o></o>
Give to my praisers; let not fortune fail us. Loud may we speak, with brave men, in the assembly.Rgveda II.11.21.
The translation of ‘jaritre’ as given here is is in consonance with the translation of the term ‘jaritah’ (vocative case singular-sambodhana of the basic stem jaritri).in the other mantas being discussed by us, viz.. 0 singer’.
Regards
s.s.rana

 

[lrburdak]

Thanks Rana Saheb for translation and explaination !

Why is garitaa written after jaritaa in following phrase Yaska's Nirukta ed. by L. Sarup

1,7. jaritaa.garitaa

Regards,

 

[drssrana2003]

Jat - the rem origins, history, etymology etc.

Thanks Rana Saheb for translation and explaination !

Why is garitaa written after jaritaa in following phrase Yaska's Nirukta ed. by L. Sarup

1,7. jaritaa.garitaa

Regards,

Laxman Ji,
In the texts quoted from the URL as above Yaska while enunciating the principles of etymology inter-alia states that where ever the meaning of a certain word is transparent in accordance with a possible verb stem and also the suffix part is visible , the word should accordingly be derived from that root ( we know that Yaska was a great advocate of the theory that all nouns are derivajaatyable from some verbal root-vide, 'sarvaani naamaani). Then he goes on to point out that are certain words with a single suffix and have gone obsolete for not being in use. The meaning of such words becomes unascertainable. Meaning being the pole star for arriving at etymology our task becomes almost impossible. yaska proceeds to list some of the words of this kind. First he gives the word, then the meaning in the form of a known equivalent. Thus he tells us 'jaatya aatnaaro'..vratitirdamun aa....'jaritaa g'aritaa' etc. In all these examples, the obscure words are enumerated each followed by the alternative term then known. In this way we should understand that ' jaatyah' (this is the form without sandhi) stands for aatnarah(without sandhi). People in Yaska's time did not know what ' jaatyah' meant but were familiar with the term ' aatnarah'. Similar was the case with the vedic term 'jaritaa'. In this case also he gives an equivalent term 'garitaa' which was well understood then (ironically ,though, it has itself gone into obsolescnce in our times). In Griffith's transalation we came accross the meaning 'singer' for the term 'jaritaa' which trvelling trough 'garitaa'appears to be closer to our modern day words 'geet' , gaayatri',
'keertan'( from sanskrit root keert).
regards
s.s.rana

 

[ambijat]

The jatiya bazar

Jaatya (जाटया) in Rajasthani is a word used for Jat in down grading sense. There is a market in Sikar known as Jatya Bajar. It was founded by a Jat so the Jagirdars started calling it Jatya Bajar.

Regards,

This seems more likely a conjecture. The jatiya bajar started by a Jat seems unlikely. There is a surname Jatiya in other castes, so how one can argue in particular manner, espcially the deoragatory thing is a tricky thing to establish.

Yes! indeed Jats and Rajput had strenuous relations but it was only after the advent of the British. The Rao Raja of Sikar had by and large general acceptability among the Jat peasantry till the 1850s. The problem started arising when one of the Thakur of perhaps Mandawa handed over Tatya Tope to the British by deceit. Then Jats actually started seeing things from the larger perspective.
tks!
Ambrish

 

[bstomar]

Dr Rana,
Your thoughts seem to be the most lucid of the lot...

 

[drssrana2003]

Jat- the term origins, history, etymology etc.

This seems more likely a conjecture. The jatiya bajar started by a Jat seems unlikely. There is a surname Jatiya in other castes, so how one can argue in particular manner, espcially the deoragatory thing is a tricky thing to establish.

Yes! indeed Jats and Rajput had strenuous relations but it was only after the advent of the British. The Rao Raja of Sikar had by and large general acceptability among the Jat peasantry till the 1850s. The problem started arising when one of the Thakur of perhaps Mandawa handed over Tatya Tope to the British by deceit. Then Jats actually started seeing things from the larger perspective.
tks!
Ambrish

Ambrish Ji,
Your observations are significant in the process of tracing the history ( if not origins) of the term Jat and its derivatives. I would prefer not to easily dismiss Laxmanji's information about the name of a baazaar in Sikar as 'jatiyaa baazaar'. We are well conversant with the endemic association of a pejorative meaning with the term JAT. The more we proceed westward from central punjab the term undergoes phonetic changes and gets embroiled in an air of derogatory overtones. Punjabi setlers any where would be found, innocently but surely, using terms like' Jat, Jatt, Jatkaa ( colour), Jatki (dialect) invariably not in flattering terms.
As far as 'jatiyaa' is concerned Iwould surmise that it is derivable from jat
with the suffix iyaa ( of the Hindustani language) coming more or less intact from the Sanskrit suffix 'iiyas' giving different shades of meaning,one being that of belittlement. vestiges of such shades can be observed in desi terms like 'katiyaa', 'bachhiyaa', baghiyaa' etc. The fact remains that in spite of great honours earned by innumerable members of this community in different walks of life, the term 'Jat' continues to be used by non- jats ( albeit mostly in absentia) in a derogatory sense even for those who may not be identified as members of this caste.This phenomina is not casual. We need to investigate, who used this term initially and why and at what point of time. We as a community have done well to wash the pejorative shade. I can only guesS a clue.Are not the rural people in north and north west India seen as Jats by strangers in the same way as we of the north some years back used to club all south Indians as Madrasis?

 

[lrburdak]

This seems more likely a conjecture. The jatiya bajar started by a Jat seems unlikely. There is a surname Jatiya in other castes, so how one can argue in particular manner, espcially the deoragatory thing is a tricky thing to establish.

Ambrish

Ambarishji,

The Jat social workers are trying hard to change Jatiya Bazar written on a board in Sikar Market to correct name Jat Bazar. There is an official notification which mentions it as Jat Bazar but people started it calling Jatiya Bazar and so municipality wrote it like that. Yes it is a market established by a Jat. More info can be obtained from Mr Mansukh Ranwa from Sikar. He is fighting to get corrected name on Board in Sikar.

 

[drssrana2003]

Ambarishji,

The Jat social workers are trying hard to change Jatiya Bazar written on a board in Sikar Market to correct name Jat Bazar. There is an official notification which mentions it as Jat Bazar but people started it calling Jatiya Bazar and so municipality wrote it like that. Yes it is a market established by a Jat. More info can be obtained from Mr Mansukh Ranwa from Sikar. He is fighting to get corrected name on Board in Sikar.

Laxman Ji,

What is 'Jatiyaa chamaar'?
Regards,
s.s.rana

 

[arvind1069]

why are u reading griffiths bhashya? read swami dayanand translation. only then you will get the right picture.
rigved doesnt mention about any king , community or tribes history.

LAXMAN JI,
Given below is Griffith's translation of the first two mantras:

Lighting Gods hither, Agni, wisest singer, bring to us many and flawless shelters.
Bring vigour, like a car gathers booty:
bring us, O Agni, beauteous earth and heaven.(rgveda III.15.5)

This, singer, is my firm determination,to aid the worshiper who pours the soma.
Islay the man who brings no milk oblations, unrighteous, powerful, the truth perverter. (Rgveda X.27.1)

The Devata of Rgveda VIII.100.4 is Indra. The mantra extols his qualities. The term jaritah as can be seen has been translated as 'singer'.The
Avadhi or the later Hindi meaning does not appear to fit in here.Iam not able to make further comment at this stage.Incidentally there are a few typographical errors in the Sanskrit mantras quoted above which I can not correct as my computer here has no Devanagari font.
Regrds
s.s.rana
s.s.rana

 

[drssrana2003]

Jat - the rem origins, history, etymology etc.

why are u reading griffiths bhashya? read swami dayanand translation. only then you will get the right picture.

rigved doesnt mention about any king , community or tribes history.

Arvind Ji,
I am aware of Swami Dayanand's bhaashya on Rgveda. I have carefully gone through the Rgvedaadibhashyabhumikaa.Swamiji had an ideology and he succesfully established it through his interpretations of the vedic texts.But as you may be knowing the vedas, being the earliest inspired speech of humanity, have attracted a wide gamut of inspired souls to offer their exposiion of the vedas. Thus we have several schools of vedic interpretations. The one represented by Swami Dayananda is quite logical and has a vast following. Since different interpretations are possible it would not be fair to rule out every thing else. There should be no question of open and shut in matters of academic discussions. Swamiji, when once asked why had he changd his views on a certain issue, replied that he had not changed, but had evolved.He had not forgotten the vedic prayer-'aa no bhadraah kratavo yantu vishvatah'.Personally I would have liked to acces Swamiji's bhaashya on the Rgvedic mantras which were under discussion in the context of the term 'jaritaa'. But as I have no immediate acces to the bhaashya (currently being abroad). I would welcome if you could give your observations on the term 'jaritaa' on the basis of Swamiji's bhaashya.
Regards
s.s.rana

 

[arvind1069]

Dear Rana sahib
I will definately look for this mantras meaning.
i am also abroad, but i think one of my friend has got swamijis bhashya. i will do that asap.
u r exactly right that v should be open to all kinds of interpretations. no harm in that. but v should not give our final decision without reading swamijis bhashya.

yes lots of scholars have their views about vedas. but they were only scholars, not yogis. real meaning (bhaavarth) of vedic mantras is beyond the scope of literery scholars. only a true scholar (vidvaan) + yogi can reveal its true meaning. so even gautam buddha or guru nanak will also fail to do so becase they were only yogi not a scholar. swami dayanad was a rare combination of a top notch scholar, a yogi, and a social reformer. thats why i believe that he cant b wrong. on the other hand griffith, maxmuller, monier williams etc were biassed scholars. i have read some of max mullers translations and they show his imperialist mentality. if u read some of them u ll laugh and cry at the same time. such blunders he has commited. same is true with indian scholars like sayan and mahidhar. inhi logon ne vedon ko badnam kiya hai.

meanwhile i ll look for the meaning of "jarita" in vedas.

regards
arvind



Arvind Ji,
I am aware of Swami Dayanand's bhaashya on Rgveda. I have carefully gone through the Rgvedaadibhashyabhumikaa.Swamiji had an ideology and he succesfully established it through his interpretations of the vedic texts.But as you may be knowing the vedas, being the earliest inspired speech of humanity, have attracted a wide gamut of inspired souls to offer their exposiion of the vedas. Thus we have several schools of vedic interpretations. The one represented by Swami Dayananda is quite logical and has a vast following. Since different interpretations are possible it would not be fair to rule out every thing else. There should be no question of open and shut in matters of academic discussions. Swamiji, when once asked why had he changd his views on a certain issue, replied that he had not changed, but had evolved.He had not forgotten the vedic prayer-'aa no bhadraah kratavo yantu vishvatah'.Personally I would have liked to acces Swamiji's bhaashya on the Rgvedic mantras which were under discussion in the context of the term 'jaritaa'. But as I have no immediate acces to the bhaashya (currently being abroad). I would welcome if you could give your observations on the term 'jaritaa' on the basis of Swamiji's bhaashya.
Regards
s.s.rana[/QUOTE]

 

[ambijat]

Jat and the belittling of the person

The term JAT I believe must be give a tiered understanding.

Level 1- It represents a caste, with clearer geographic domain quite distinguishable as north, north-central India.

Level 2- It represents a social break in stratification system esp. the jajmani system as it has its status varying within the same domain, from rulers to subjects.

Level 3- It represents the unique cultural bed of ancient India where some consolidation was there in Indian society, which later provided some strong basis of acceptance to other religions, such as Buddhism and later Islam. This a very important level of understanding the Jats.

Level 4- The Jats as seen by non-south Asian reference communities, be they Persians, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Pathans (Durranis) and what status they accorded to us.

Level 5- Jats seen as by Brahamans. This is also a very crucial tier as it created all the attempts to put Jats into stratification system. And, then Jats were either exploited or they exploited other.

I think with the different levels of understanding we would be able to look into the sources from which our factors of identity are emerging and then we may perhaps be able to better satisfy our selves.

my hypothesis is that Jat represent a particular socio-cultural landscape owing to its very noticeable peculiarities, where many influences got dissolved and many emerged out into the larger framework of south Asian (not limiting to Indian) society.

Tks! to Ranaji and Burdakji for your valuable comments.
Rgs!
Ambrish

 

[arvind1069]

dear rana ji
this is swamijis translation of rigved 10/27/1

शब्दार्थ : हे (जरित): स्तुति करने वाले (में स: अभिवेग: सु असत) मेरा ये शास्वत स्वाभाव कल्याणकारी है (यत) की जो (सुन्वते यजमानाय शिक्षम) यज्ञशील, देवोपसक को आनंद देता है मैं ईश्वर राजा (अनाशी: दाम) आशा अनुरूप न देने वालों को (प्रहंता असमी) नाश करने वाला हूँ मैं (सत्य- धवरितम) सत्ये विनाशक व् पापाचरण करने वाले को (प्रहंताअस्मि) नष्ट करता हूँ

भावार्थ: प्रभु का यह शास्वत स्वाभाव है की वह अपने प्रति समर्पण करने वाले उपासक को सर्वविध आनंद प्रदान करते हैं और नास्तिक , पाप कर्मी तथा पीड़क जनों का नाश करता है

this doesnt seem to say that jarita means jat

 

[drssrana2003]

Jat - the rem origins, history, etymology etc.

Arvind ji,
Thanks a lot for the hindi translation. Yes, Jaritaa does not stand for a caste or community here, nor a clan or tribe. Do you agree that Griffith understood the term in the same sense as Swamiji?
In my opinion we should look for the origin of the term Jat independently of the people to begin with. When and how and from which quarters they got this label can be investigated for better results.

 

[arvind1069]

Arvind ji,
Thanks a lot for the hindi translation. Yes, Jaritaa does not stand for a caste or community here, nor a clan or tribe. Do you agree that Griffith understood the term in the same sense as Swamiji?
In my opinion we should look for the origin of the term Jat independently of the people to begin with. When and how and from which quarters they got this label can be investigated for better results.

राणा जी
मेरा ये निश्चित मत है की वेदों का सही अनुवाद और भावार्थ केवल उसी भाषा मैं ठीक ठीक हो सकता है जो संस्कृत के समीप हो, अंग्रेजी मैं उसके भावार्थ को ठीक प्रकार से नहीं समझा जा सकता, अंग्रेजी मैं केवल उसका अनुवाद मात्र किया जा सकता है भावार्थ नहीं
जिसे स्वामीजी स्तुति करने वाला कह रहे हैं, उसे ग्रिफ्फिथ गायक कह रहा है ग्रिफ्फिथ क्यूंकि अंग्रेजी भाषी है वो इस मंत्र के भाव को ठीक ठीक नहीं समझ सकता
उसने इस मंत्र का मोटे रूप से शब्दार्थ किया है जबकि स्वामीजी का ने उसका सही यौगिक अर्थ निकला है
तो मेरे विचार से ग्रिफ्फिथ और स्वामीजी का भावार्थ एक नहीं है

आज मैंने ये सारा thread देखा . जो आपने जाट का सम्बन्ध जटाओं (लम्बे बालों ) वाले साधू से किया है इसके बारे मैं मैंने और कहीं भी पढ़ा है शायद wikipedia पर. उसमे लिखे था की जब सिंध पर इस्लामी आक्रमण हुआ तब उन्हें लम्बी जटाओं वाले लोग मिले जो अपने को जाट कहते थे. उन लोगों ने आक्रमण का विरोध भी किया था और लड़ाई भी की थी , कई बार मुझे ऐसा लगता है की जाट शब्द की उत्पत्ति जटा (लम्बे बाल) से हुई है
और कई बार ज्ञाति संघ वाली बात भी ठीक लगती है मेरा आपसे प्रशन है की आपको ज्ञाति संघ वाली theory मैं क्या कमी नज़र आती है ? क्या वो आपको ठीक नहीं लगती? हो सकता है ऐसा कोई संघ बना हो जिसका नाम बाद मैं ज्ञात से जाट बन गयाहो
हाँ वो शिवजी की जटाओं वाली theory बिलकुल हास्यापद है और कदापि स्वाकार नहीं की जा सकती

 

[arvind1069]

मेरे विचार से हमें चन्द्रगुप्त, अशोक आदि के समय से लेकर मध्यकाल तक का इतिहास उठा कर उसपर अधिक शोध करना होगा , उस समय के सामाजिक ढांचे का अध्यन करने के बाद ही शायद जाट शब्द का रहस्य पता चल सके

 

[dndeswal]

मेरा ये निश्चित मत है की वेदों का सही अनुवाद और भावार्थ केवल उसी भाषा मैं ठीक ठीक हो सकता है जो संस्कृत के समीप हो, अंग्रेजी मैं उसके भावार्थ को ठीक प्रकार से नहीं समझा जा सकता, अंग्रेजी मैं केवल उसका अनुवाद मात्र किया जा सकता है भावार्थ नहीं
जिसे स्वामीजी स्तुति करने वाला कह रहे हैं, उसे ग्रिफ्फिथ गायक कह रहा है ग्रिफ्फिथ क्यूंकि अंग्रेजी भाषी है वो इस मंत्र के भाव को ठीक ठीक नहीं समझ सकता
उसने इस मंत्र का मोटे रूप से शब्दार्थ किया है जबकि स्वामीजी का ने उसका सही यौगिक अर्थ निकला है

बिल्कुल ठीक कहा । हिन्दी या किसी और भारतीय भाषा में ही वेदों का सही अनुवाद और भावार्थ सटीक तरीके से समझा जा सकता है, किसी विदेशी भाषा में नहीं । अंग्रेजी शब्दकोश देखने में बड़ा लगता है पर उसमें समुचित शब्दों का काफी अभाव है ।

 

[drssrana2003]

Jat - the rem origins, history, etymology etc.

Arvind Ji,
Let me make it clear that I have nowhere in this thread or elsewhere related the term 'Jaata' with a mendicant with long hair locks. On the contrary I have expressed my disappointment over such crude connections sought to be made in some circles of writers. I had taken up the issue of the term 'Jaatyah' in Yaska's Nirukta, I.14,explained as 'aatnarah'. I had pointed out that the term here has no reference to our caste term 'jaata', but only refers to a roaming mendicant(with long hair locks). You may like to revisit my post on the issue.
I would agree with you that Hindi language is more competent to express the most correct spirit of Sanskrit texts. At the same time it is also true that language is only a vehicle-and a multi purpose one for communication of ideas.When Friffith uses the term 'singer' we have to give him the allowance of limitations of a translator and interpret the term 'singer' (for jaritaa) in light of the nuances it conjures up in our mind. After all we do sing songs in praise of Paramapitaa Parameshvara. I believe in keeping a window open in my well protected house.

Regards
s.s.rana