Jats Against Reservations

[shweta123]

The logic here goes like this ... its wrong not to take bath daily, one should be clean and tidy but since everyone in our neighborhood does not take bath we will also not take bath and its actually good ! Since you can not make all your neighbors take bath.

I wish the problem with RESERVATION was as simple as people not taking bath daily.

Ok assume we get reservation for all Jats and other casts also follow the trend and reservations are made for all 100% based on the census report and economic condition of all casts. Then what ? Will people not continue to claim we are backward and keep on availing this so called benefit of reservation. Is their any provision that certain community will not be given reservation since 100% of its people are now happy and prosperous. Should there be such a provision or not ? Can reservation really lead to prosperity for all and at same time ?

Reservation is already being extended on the basis of religion for backward muslims in Andhra ... every person has a cast and a religion, what should hold higher precedence cast or religion when getting reservation. Are we not complicating the matters by going into details of making reservation fit for those very divisions of our society over which we should overcome to make INDIA truly a great nation. Equal in opportunities for all.


If our girls do not get admission in MBBS as was quoted as an example here. The solution lies in pressing for opening more Medical colleges in India ... increasing the standard of education in schools that no coaching institute can thrive on scarcity of seats and preparing students just towards cracking the exam. Not forcing the children and creating undue pressure on them that being a doctor is the only thing in their life, but making them realize to be best in what they do. Obviously the solution is not in pressing for reservation but to kill the Reservation that is doing unjustice to her and others by the time we get the medical colleges ready.

I do realize that path of getting reservation is not an easy one but I ponder that the time and energy spent in getting the reservation will not be more in getting the reservation cancelled for all. Enough is enough ! Lets ask our leaders to concentrate on real issues and elevation of our masses and let us get involved directly if we can as per our capacity, rather than waste time and energy on beating around the bush.


When most of us do realize that RESERVATION the way its being implemented in our system is wrong, but still insisting we should get it.

How can two wrongs make a right ?

Does reservation address the problems of infant mortality, growing population , primary education , women power, lack of higher education opportunities in rural part and n number of other problems.

We fighting for reservation is just a quick fix and as the saying goes "Prevention is better than cure". But the problem of reservation requires both prevention in terms of addressing the core problems and cure in form of its removal from system.

Shekhar here no one is willing to take bath it has already been cleared through different means/ways/studies/quoting other non-bathers' views

And to make us laugh Mr. Vivek posted some report from some Commission as if he comprehended the output sufficiently & has learnt the lines by heart Well, I am still trying to figure out its pertinence towards the points being made and Mr. Ravinder Sura is good at copy pasting too must say ....

But the sole point that emerged strongly is that we all need it coz the OTHERS have had/having it !

We have accepted that our reservation system is neither well framed nor well implemented & administered, but we want it to compete with other wrong doers ! And those who call against it are the only ones who are well placed and dont think for the general masses !

Not astonishing, but here I see the Jats losing their trait of standing tall against evils no matter what. They have put their knees down and are all eager to bow down just for seeking some not well earned opportunities - just that !

 

[kapdal]

For the reservationists.

I have spent lots of time and energy in giving arguments against reservations for our community. Sadly, but not surprisingly the pro-reservation people have not countered any argument, but keep repeating the same points again and again. Honestly, I feel exasperated, especially with the ludicrous tone and content of some arguments. Though I have already given arguments against all those points, I am giving below a collection of points made by pro-reservation people and making an attempt to show the utter logical incoherence in these arguments.

So this is what pro-reservation people are saying:

1. You guys (me and anyone who dare opposed these holy representatives of our community) are the educated, the elite, the buddhijeevis, the intellectuals- all words used in derogatory sense, as if to strive for intellect is a crime. Anyways, the argument that is made is that the "intellectuals" are incapable of understanding the plight of the common Jats from villages, and that they are opposing reservations just because of false pride.

Counter: Firstly, to counter someone's arguments by attacking his background is indulging in the worst form of politics. I feel so strongly about it that if I was the moderator, I'd have banned such people. Secondly, the assumption made is that just because someone is opposing reservations or is sounding "intellectual", he belongs to the elite and has no connection with villages. I for one have more connection with villages than most of these people trying to represent the "poor masses". Most of my relatives are still farmers and my father values his land more than anything else. When I know that reservations is going to do nothing for these people, why should I support it? Is it some kind of rule that any form of stupid populist agenda has to be supported irresepective of its merit? Now, pro-reservation people say that these villagers don't get good education and hence they need reservations. Please tell me one thing- are you guys insane? Yes, the villagers don't get good education and that's precisely why reservations would be useless for them. Someone who can't spell engineer is not going to become engineer just because of reservations. There are enough Jats and Non-Jats from middle-class urban background, who have access to education, and who would use these opportunities- right from educational institutions to jobs from clerical level to IAS. Anyone with an iota of honesty can't deny this fact. It is not as if all middle-class jats are born with a holier than thou conscience (maybe these holy representatives are, but not the masses for sure) that they won't make use of the OBC quota if they don't need it. Parents of these kids right now try their best to use money/connections to get their children a seat in an institute or a job. OBC quota would just be another means to the end for these people. Villagers are going to get nothing. It is not a figment of my imagination- this is what has happened in the last 60 years with all other communities. So please for god's sake, stop playing the villager card. If you are so interested in villagers' welfare, please start a movement to provide quality primary education, scholarships to the talented kids and other employment opportunities for not-so-talented kids in the villages. Reservation doesn't create any new employment opportunities for anyone. All it does is a redistribution of the existing seats and govt. jobs amongst those who already had access to the same- that is the middle and the upper classes. So amongst the people with SIMILAR ECONOMIC STATUS, some won't get what they deserved and some would get what they did not deserve. But a villager who has no access to primary education is going to get nothing through reservations.

2. If all others are getting it, why not us? What harm can it possibly do? Look at XYZ community...

Counter: If all others are jumping in a well, we surely won't follow them right? The funny thing is that no one is able to back the XYZ argument with any solid examples. All that is said is that so many individuals from XYZ communities have got so many government jobs. Firstly, progress of a few individuals is not the same as progress of the community. Secondly, it is not even progress of the individuals in question unless they do something worthwhile. Merely getting a government job easily is not an achievement. Any dog can chew a bone thrown to him. Achievement is in doing something exemplary in your field. I can name quite a few Jats who have achieved distinction in their fields without reservations- from Sehwag to Paramveer chakra awardees. But I don't know anyone who has used reservations and has done something exemplary. I have repeatedly asked for examples- no one has come up with any. Now, I am not even saying that there would be no such example- there are always exceptions, but they would always remain exceptions. Because when someone gets something easily, it is extremely difficult for him to deserve it. So many families' wealth have been squandered by unworthy heirs. Reservation provides an easy default option which makes the entire community lose its competitive spirit. It is like this- if you leave a tiger open in front of a cage with an easy prey inside, he would walk into it. For years to come, he'd get decent food inside. But if you leave him out in the jungle ever, can he dare compete with a jungle tiger? Does the free food he gets inside the cage worth exemplifying and anything in comparison with the 'hunts' made by the free tiger? Reservation is like that cage.

3. Let's unite to get reservations and then beat the sh*t out of other communities like baniyas, brahmins, etc. by favoring our own people.

Counter: I am sorry, but that sounds like casteism. Bulk of these people would print reams of paper on how the other castes favor their own people and how they themselves have been discriminated against. And they have no qualms about doing the same. Ever heard about- "Don't do unto others what you don't want to be done to yourself"?? If you want to change something, start from yourself. If you don't like being discriminated against based on your identity, then don't practise it yourself. And anyways, your identity ought to be Indian first and then a Hindu or a Jat or whatever. We can only progress if our country as a whole progresses. Fighting amongst ourselves has ensured our defeat for centuries. And you guys are recommending more of the same? Rest assured that just like you are telling us about the discrimination the other castes mete out against us, there are people in all communities who are doing the same. Bhindranwale was a product of this 'us against them' syndrome and he wreaked havoc on Punjab and the rest of the country. Sikhs and non-sikhs alike were much better off without him. Ditto is the case with the "home-grown jihadis". When so many people share a space for such a long period of time, there would be plenty of bad stories. But the idea of India is based on joining hands despite differences, uniting on a macro Indian identity rather than getting divided on micro identities. I am all for working to improve the lot of our community, but it doesn't have to be at the expense of others. Why is no one launching a movement to stop female foeticide amongst Jats or to provide good education to the villagers? Are these topics less important than getting reservations or less populist and hence less likely to get votes?

 

[sanjeev_balyan]

I

if I was the moderator, I'd have banned such people

your identity ought to be Indian first and then a Hindu or a Jat or whatever. We can only progress if our country as a whole progresses. Fighting amongst ourselves has ensured our defeat for centuries.

Bhindranwale "home-grown jihadis".

But the idea of India is based on joining hands despite differences, uniting on a macro Indian identity rather than getting divided on micro identities.

Why is no one launching a movement to stop female foeticide amongst Jats or to provide good education to the villagers? Are these topics less important than getting reservations or less populist and hence less likely to get votes?

kapil ji, yr points can not be downgraded and no body has argued that reservation is good. but i believe u r not focusing on the topic and beating the wrong side of the drum.

Asking reservation for JATs in present framed structure of reservation in India
can not be categorized as utter logical incoherence, i believe we r talking here on this forum for welfare of Jats, yr speech is good for addressing the common crowd. (See yr lines in red)

you dont have any objection in present framing of reservation system and r on the line that let them do whatever they (Govt) want but we will not make any protest against it. suppose one day govt declare that 99 % valencies will be filled by SC/ST/OBC and 1% only shall be available for Generals. in that scene, if JAT will ask OBC status than also you will put the same arguments.(i will not go in details becoz you r coming with same ones every time)

mostly you r arguing against the reservation, that is correct and everybody is with you, we should fight against any kind of reservation and instead of asking OBC status we should ask elimination of the reservation system.

but we know that it is not possible (and moreover topic of this thread is position of JATs in presently framed system). in that case i find yr thoughts against the welfare of KAUM

One example of non taking bath was given by Nehra ji and second one of tiger in side the cage by you to explain the situation better, but as per me there is no connection of these examples with topic of the discussion. As i have already cleared that we are not talking about PRO Vs Anti reservation topic)

i m trying to explain the situation with one example in this case and it goes like this

some swimmers are allowed to swim in one pool and no of swimmers r fixed. Now when u enter, you find that some swimmers r swimming with help of floating pads provided by the institution on some stupid ground. and some without it. suppose u r not so excellent swimmer but far far better than these guys who r equipped with floating pads, now u are asked to leave the pool stating that u can make it and we have chosen the best lot, how do u feel

now in this case three options r available

1. we will fight with system to get rid of this provision of floating pads arrangement on any ground, (The best option but unfortunately not possible and same time not the discussion topic at least in this thread)

2. we will not look in this fraud and go back to our home accepting the situation and will try again with more hard work and keeping all yr points in mind. ijjet, self esteem, jungle ka tiger etc

3. we will demand this floating pad on same ground. as we know inferior to us is inside and if the same tool is given to us than he will be out and we will get in. for this action only, the so called pro reservation lobby is arguing.

you have also raised so many points, ( see in blue) which i dont think anyway connected to the topic, we cant speak here in this thread on stopping the female foeticide or improving education system or other topic, every issue is equally important, and if this reservation topic is not so important than why have u started this thread. i couldnot understand why r u trying to connect it with votes and politics.

pl be cool, and argue logically to support yr opinion, i hope we r not fighting here. dont try to change somebdy's opinion by force, if u r selected the Mod here thna we all guyes will be banned, this is not a democratic statement, complete dictatorship is being reflected. pl dont take anything personally, we r discussing a burning topic and u have only started it,

 

[kapdal]

Balyanji,

Please don't take my statements out of context. What you highlighted in red as good for general crowd was very much meant to be here. I clearly started the post by saying that I'd collect the points given by many pro-reservation people right here on this thread and then argue against them. If you haven't been following the thread, please read all posts carefully. These points have been mentioned by people here and I am giving a rebuttal against them.

The second statement you took out of context was about banning people. Did I say that all people supporting reservations should be banned? I clearly mentioned people indulging in identity based politics. Freedom of speech is important, but so is the duty of using it sensibly. Say I start arguing against every point mentioned by you with a statement like "UP Ka Jat, aur pathhar ka baat, jitna tolo ghaat hi ghaat". Would you like it? Without getting into the merit of your arguments, I start attacking your identity and hence your motivation- are you supporting that sort of freedom of speech? I hope you get the point.

Why are you assuming that I don't have any objection in the present framing of the reservation system? As you have yourself mentioned, the topic of this thread is reservations for our community. So you have made a giant leap of faith in assuming that I am "on the line that let them do whatever they (Govt) want but we will not make any protest against it." And that I will put the same arguments even when govt. declares 99% reservations. I will be the first person demanding reservations not only for Jats but for Brahmins, Baniyas and everyone else if that day ever comes. The number of forward/middle castes in India are significantly high for anyone to ignore them completely. Can anyone dare think about increasing reservations in Haryana if Jats are in general category? Plus there are constitutional checks on reservations (if you want to mention Tamilnadu, please go through my post on that). On the other hand, if everyone starts demanding reservations, then either the OBC category won't look attractive anymore or there would be demands to increase the quota. If you are against reservations in principle, why do you want to work towards making the situation worse?

I am not sure how you don't see any connection of "tiger inside the cage" example or other points. As I said, I clearly explained the context before making an argument. "Tiger inside the cage" is not PRO vs ANTI reservation, it is to show the plight of someone who has reservations. I have tried my best to show the cons of reservation- and you are telling me that those thoughts are against the kaum. But you don't give me any example of anything exemplary being done by people who took the help of reservations.

You don't want to see the connection of my points, but I am willing to tackle your swimmer argument. If the pool is the equivalent of the world, then no one can ask you to leave it. In the long run, the better and hard working swimmer would beat the crap out of those with floating pads. Those who are used to swimming pads would not be able to give them up- they become destined to barely survive rather than accomplish something. Can they ever dream of competing with a real swimmer? And again, this is not a figment of my imagination. 60 years of reservations hasn't yielded many examples worth quoting from those with swimming pads. While there are plenty to quote from those without the pads. The choice is yours- you want to make the community dependant on swimming pads or independent fighters- and if you think that arguing to make them independent fighters is against the welfare of the kaum, then I will give up on you.

Finally, I am obliged to show the connection of my points on female foeticide and education, as you didn't see the connection here as well. Time and again (on this thread itself), pro-reservation people have showed reservations as the single most important issue concerning the welfare of our community. According to them, reservations would cause a revolution for Jats, especially in villages. My attempt is to show that not only reservations would be useless for those in villages who don't have access to even primary education, moreover there are several other issues which if tackled would make a true impact on the welfare of our community. I would be most grateful if you make an attempt to see the comments in the context they have been made.

but i believe u r not focusing on the topic and beating the wrong side of the drum.
yr speech is good for addressing the common crowd. (See yr lines in red)

you dont have any objection in present framing of reservation system and r on the line that let them do whatever they (Govt) want but we will not make any protest against it. suppose one day govt declare that 99 % valencies will be filled by SC/ST/OBC and 1% only shall be available for Generals. in that scene, if JAT will ask OBC status than also you will put the same arguments.(i will not go in details becoz you r coming with same ones every time)

but we know that it is not possible (and moreover topic of this thread is position of JATs in presently framed system). in that case i find yr thoughts against the welfare of KAUM

One example of non taking bath was given by Nehra ji and second one of tiger in side the cage by you to explain the situation better, but as per me there is no connection of these examples with topic of the discussion. As i have already cleared that we are not talking about PRO Vs Anti reservation topic)

i m trying to explain the situation with one example in this case and it goes like this

some swimmers are allowed to swim in one pool and no of swimmers r fixed. Now when u enter, you find that some swimmers r swimming with help of floating pads provided by the institution on some stupid ground. and some without it. suppose u r not so excellent swimmer but far far better than these guys who r equipped with floating pads, now u are asked to leave the pool stating that u can make it and we have chosen the best lot, how do u feel

now in this case three options r available

1. we will fight with system to get rid of this provision of floating pads arrangement on any ground, (The best option but unfortunately not possible and same time not the discussion topic at least in this thread)

2. we will not look in this fraud and go back to our home accepting the situation and will try again with more hard work and keeping all yr points in mind. ijjet, self esteem, jungle ka tiger etc

3. we will demand this floating pad on same ground. as we know inferior to us is inside and if the same tool is given to us than he will be out and we will get in. for this action only, the so called pro reservation lobby is arguing.

pl be cool, and argue logically to support yr opinion, i hope we r not fighting here. dont try to change somebdy's opinion by force, if u r selected the Mod here thna we all guyes will be banned, this is not a democratic statement, complete dictatorship is being reflected. pl dont take anything personally, we r discussing a burning topic and u have only started it,

 

[samarkadian]

I have spent lots of time and energy in giving arguments against reservations for our community. Sadly, but not surprisingly the pro-reservation people have not countered any argument, but keep repeating the same points again and again.

So this is what pro-reservation people are saying:

1. You guys (me and anyone who dare opposed these holy representatives of our community) are the educated, the elite, the buddhijeevis, the intellectuals- all words used in derogatory sense, as if to strive for intellect is a crime. Anyways, the argument that is made is that the "intellectuals" are incapable of understanding the plight of the common Jats from villages, and that they are opposing reservations just because of false pride.

Counter: Firstly, to counter someone's arguments by attacking his background is indulging in the worst form of politics. I feel so strongly about it that if I was the moderator, I'd have banned such people. Secondly, the assumption made is that just because someone is opposing reservations or is sounding "intellectual", he belongs to the elite and has no connection with villages. I for one have more connection with villages than most of these people trying to represent the "poor masses". All it does is a redistribution of the existing seats and govt. jobs amongst those who already had access to the same- that is the middle and the upper classes. So amongst the people with SIMILAR ECONOMIC STATUS, some won't get what they deserved and some would get what they did not deserve. But a villager who has no access to primary education is going to get nothing through reservations.

2. If all others are getting it, why not us? What harm can it possibly do? Look at XYZ community...

Counter: If all others are jumping in a well, we surely won't follow them right? The funny thing is that no one is able to back the XYZ argument with any solid examples. All that is said is that so many individuals from XYZ communities have got so many government jobs. Firstly, progress of a few individuals is not the same as progress of the community. Secondly, it is not even progress of the individuals in question unless they do something worthwhile. Merely getting a government job easily is not an achievement. Any dog can chew a bone thrown to him. Achievement is in doing something exemplary in your field. I can name quite a few Jats who have achieved distinction in their fields without reservations- from Sehwag to Paramveer chakra awardees. But I don't know anyone who has used reservations and has done something exemplary. I have repeatedly asked for examples- no one has come up with any. Does the free food he gets inside the cage worth exemplifying and anything in comparison with the 'hunts' made by the free tiger? Reservation is like that cage.

3. Let's unite to get reservations and then beat the sh*t out of other communities like baniyas, brahmins, etc. by favoring our own people.

Counter: I am sorry, but that sounds like casteism. Bulk of these people would print reams of paper on how the other castes favor their own people and how they themselves have been discriminated against. And they have no qualms about doing the same. Ever heard about- "Don't do unto others what you don't want to be done to yourself"?? If you want to change something, start from yourself. If you don't like being discriminated against based on your identity, then don't practise it yourself. And anyways, your identity ought to be Indian first and then a Hindu or a Jat or whatever. We can only progress if our country as a whole progresses. Fighting amongst ourselves has ensured our defeat for centuries. And you guys are recommending more of the same? Rest assured that just like you are telling us about the discrimination the other castes mete out against us, there are people in all communities who are doing the same. Bhindranwale was a product of this 'us against them' syndrome and he wreaked havoc on Punjab and the rest of the country. Sikhs and non-sikhs alike were much better off without him. Ditto is the case with the "home-grown jihadis". When so many people share a space for such a long period of time, there would be plenty of bad stories. But the idea of India is based on joining hands despite differences, uniting on a macro Indian identity rather than getting divided on micro identities. I am all for working to improve the lot of our community, but it doesn't have to be at the expense of others. Why is no one launching a movement to stop female foeticide amongst Jats or to provide good education to the villagers? Are these topics less important than getting reservations or less populist and hence less likely to get votes?

Kapil,

Brilliant take on main points.I found them really logical.From another point of view these may be of help to the Pro-reservation lobby to counter them whenever asked at other plateforms of media, govt. agencies.They may not respect it but had I been the leading them I would have definitely persuaded you to come along with.

Please dont feel sad about being called names.It is the proof that your points are creating atleast a bit of panic or uneasiness in counter party's mind.All in healthy scenario.

I believe this Reservation of Jats Movement in Haryana is in its end stage as the leadership is incompetent, non-charming and with full of political desires.Most important point one should notice while following these campaign is the involvement of YOUTH.Fortunately or unfortunately, there is ban on Student Elections in colleges/Universities.Any movement which is started by the hot blood is noticed easily than to be leaded by retired personnels of various services.

Villager card is an emotional trump basically thrown to shut the mouth up of people who wants the victory through prowess.When villagers are not aware of basic schemes already given to them, how would they fill up the RESERVED Vacancies or seats whenever provided the RESERVATION.It is the lack of something in basic thought process of leadership of reservation which easily gives examples of XYZ community enjoying OBC or ST status.There is example of ULTRA-MINORITY PARSIs in India who do not have reservation rather they are the most celeberated businessmen and enterpreneurs of country.Obviously, the down path is easy, temptive and full of AKARMATHATA
While Apollian path which is motivating from glorious past, achieving it, maintaining it and moving up than past is the real growth.All hue and cry for ROZI_ROTI is downtrodden, without any sense of vision.I do not believe that it is Jat's basic nature to be reserved,That is supposed to be of Naturally Independent Strong willed character.Morever, this Villager trump card of projecting them Hungary would make their self-esteem down than to salavate it for sure.

LOL-The point which says that lets get united to beat other communities is itself beaten.A strong person or community don't need to show its strength by beating capablities to others. Strength is evident and revered without beating.Its all the case of illusioned and delusioned population of few self-acclaimed well-wishers of Jat community.Sadly and unfortunately, they have occupied the position in Khap or Sabhas which are countless in numbers nowadays.I believe that this Khap system can bring the basic change in social stratas of Jats but a leader like Ch. Chottu Ram is missing in it.I wonder sometimes that they never bring up the issues of DOWRY,FEMALE-FOETICIDE, KISAN PROTSHAHAN rather keep on dwelling on Same gotra marriages and thus helping themselves to be forgotten gradually day by day, act by act.In such a situation being hopefull is being like hopeless but still this race is destined to kiss the extreme forms of existence, be it up or down.All the endevaours of keeping it in middle would go astray for sure and that too sooner than later.An Independent race can't be reserved.

 

[shekhar_nehra]

1. we will fight with system to get rid of this provision of floating pads arrangement on any ground, (The best option but unfortunately not possible and same time not the discussion topic at least in this thread)

2. we will not look in this fraud and go back to our home accepting the situation and will try again with more hard work and keeping all yr points in mind. ijjet, self esteem, jungle ka tiger etc

3. we will demand this floating pad on same ground. as we know inferior to us is inside and if the same tool is given to us than he will be out and we will get in. for this action only, the so called pro reservation lobby is arguing.

Dear Sanjeev,

Kapil has put his thoughts quite clearly. Thread name "Jats against Reservation", implies to see how many Jats are against Reservation ( for all ). He wanted to discuss pros and cons of reservation and why it is bad.

Over here what I see is a disconnect in your argument.

First of all the three options as per your example are not mutually exclusive (i.e only one can happen at a time) .

What makes you rule out the first option ? When both 1st option and 2nd option can be tried simultaneously. Fight the system and prepare ourselves to try again. In 3rd option also you are fighting ( making your demand ).

Situation requires action, that is for sure, then why not provide the best solution to this problem ( Option 1 : you also agree to it ) how ever difficult it may be.

What makes you rule out option 1 out right ! Even before giving a serious thought over it.

In this thread most of posts by fellow members who favor reservation has been news items about people supporting it, a commissions report who was asked should reservation be extended to more people. The scope of the report never covered if reservation is required for anyone at all in first place.

 

[grewalrakesh]

I advocate that the reservation must be eliminated from the system, but the whole point is why? so that merit should only be the criteria for getting admitted in elite schools/institutions and eventually enabling the candidate to move abroad with H1, then green card and finally citizenship.

Just go on data, I don't have any but saying with what I look around me..everybody trying to get H1 and finally citizenship.
this is only one side of the coin and I may be incorrect.
so eventually it doesn't matter whether india grows or not, the individual is growing for sure,,in both the situations....either reservations exists or eliminated...

 

[fateh]

My dear Kapil Dalal God bless you, Please take it as discussion & nothing against you or any other brother.
1 I have gone through your all posts on the topic & what I see is that you have started the thread with a statement (reservation will do more harm than good) with a aim to find out number of jats against reservation with altimate aim to impress upon the jat mahasabha not to demand reservation.
2 later on in one of your post you said that you had waisted lot of energy & time but nobody replied your poits.
A First of all I am thankful to you for starting the thread on the topic.
B you have not given any point in favour of your views except repling points of pro-reservationists & I am sure even your replies were answerd very well by almost all the brothers.
3 You have niether understood the concept of reservation in India, well nor views of so called pro-reservationist.
4 you should be clear in your mind that pro-reservationist are not at all thinking & working only on reservation but much more on education, social evils & unity etc. They are also equally educated, if not more, equally doing well & equally enjoying social status moreover they are also not inferior jats.
5 I feel non of our brother favoured the cocept of reservation but the present policy & the way it is implimented in India, jats are also forced to talk for reservation. brother, xyz communities are not at all fools to jump into well & remember some time one has to jump into well & take risk for bigger good . Everybody knows that war at any level is harmful but to prevent a bigger loss/ respect or in the interest of the nation etc, one has to go for war. We should avoide words like dogsremember, all tigers are not equal & they are not to remain always young & fit to kill their prey themselves.
6 Brother, reservation is not going to stop our youth to
work hard or demotivate them to work hard & as precaution we should educate our people not to depend only on reseration & keep on working hard & taking maximum seats in general cat also as we are doing now, I am sure there is no bar reserve catagory people to apply for gen cat.
7 Self respect is achieved & maintained by good work & good behavour and it has nothing to do with reservation.
8 As a community we are still lacking behind in progress in comparision to our equal communities, joining IIT by few boys & girls doesnot mean the progress of the community. Also the reservation alone cannot bring progress, but certainly some help & a step forward.
9 The reservation is not at all (Kharat) as mentioned, as per present policy & provisions on the subject, it has becme our right & fighting for right is respectful. Land was named as demotivating factor for progress like reservation, but nobody left their even one inch & evry body is always ready to fight if his land is touched.
Nobody says that reservation alone will prevent our youth from crime but certainly even 100 who get some jobs & some in waiting will be saved.
10 I think, yadavas in up & bihar has progressed much more but even in delhi, rajesthan & haryana they have gone much ahead even than jats & certainly reservation is one the factor may be very small one.
11 We are not doing comparision between Govt & pvt sector, but in pvt sector also the demand of reservation has started & many states like Gujarat have asked directly or indirectly jobs for their people. In Gujarat even one cannot get labour lince if the organisation has not employed 85% Gujaraties in group D level jobs.
12 Certainly strengh of jats in Defence & police services has drasticly decreased after implimentation of OBC reservation, donot consider jats got jobs during Sh Chotala Sahab & sh Hooda sahab as personal help. Also please see how many jats in Rajesthan got jobs before & after the reservation for them.
14 The ability of jats of sports, modeling etc will not go away if they are given reservation.
15 I think we are forgetting that some time back we were not even allowed to eat wheete by Baniyas & not allowed to sit on cot with Rajputs & thanks to Sir Chotu Ram, otherwise our condition would have been worst than sc/st.
16 Please see the condition of jats in J&K & in other states also on ground situation is not good. I neither say that the present condition of jats is because they donot have resrvation & certainly reservation alone cannot solve the problem but will help in improving the condition.
17 I donnot think any body has any politice in raising the demand of reservation for jats, I also sinserely hope, that nobody has given you the task to derail the progress of reservation moment.
18 It is easy to talk than practice, please go ahead on any front for the welfare of the community, we are with you. There is always difference between theory & practice.
19 In the end I must extened my thanks for helping reservation moment by prolonging the discussion. I agree that one should not discuss the person but the topic & one should not feel bad if some point is contradicted with little unwanted words because it may be ignorence. Similarly I request all brothers not to feel bad on discussions. thanks, I again appreciate your interest in the community matters. Regards

 

[fateh]

Example of Bhinderwala, he was not product of casteism but totally for political reasion. It was a congress party internal game. he was looking after a small gurdawara in a vill of Firojpur dist, to counter sr Darbara singh, Giani Jail singh & madam Indira Gandhi brought him on popular platform, and later on of course he joined bad anti national gange & became problem for everyone.Bhinderwala & darbara were jatts. It is absolutely wrong to say that people favouring reservation have no patience, Also donot consider Retd people ineffective, they can do much more what some people can immagine, by the way, your PM is also a Retd person & all the young jats who are practical, know the ground reality & love their community are holding the flag of the moment in the front. Look every indidual has a right to ask his community people to get unitted for such a noble cause, is there anything wrong in it & thus such remark is uncalled for & needs to be ignored. I do believe that reservation should be done away for every one, but in present situation best way of offence is to get inside & finish it. The reservation has come in education, in promotions, in election for various positions. Take a example of a viilage having some population of SC, BC/OBC, & majority of jats, in present system, jat can only become Sarpanch once out of four terms, if we are included in obc than two tenures are assured. In the end I must say that there is no disadvantage in, jats getting reservation in present situation. therefore, once again with boh hands folded, request all jats to join the moment for the reservation at centre, inHP, J&K, Punjab, MP & Haryana. Get unitted for the noble cause.

 

[kapdal]

Fateh Sir, it seems to me that you have jumped from first post to last post without looking at any of the intermediate posts. I am surprised at your point 2 B, where you say that I have not given any point in favor of my views. In fact, I had given quite a few points in those intermediate posts. The last post (rebuttal) came as none of the reservationists bothered to reply to those points and kept harping on the same points. For your benefit, I'll briefly mention SOME of the points I had made in favor of my views:

1. Reserved category candidates enter any field with 2 self-goals: self-perception of inferiority and others considering them to be inferior. This is not an opinion but a fact that repeats everyday across India in educational institutes as well as jobs.
2. Reverse discrimination by general category people.
3. Self-restriction to 'reserved' opportunities. Why don't you see Meenas in sports, science, journalism, business or anything where there is no reservation?
4. Follows from and builds on point (3)- natural limit of 'reservable' opportunities. Not more than 10% of India is involved in govt. sector- and that too is a very high number which would go down in future.

I have already elaborated all these points before, so if you want, you can read them in my earlier posts. Ditto with all your other points. I have already argued against almost all of them in my earlier posts. If you state the same point again without challenging my rebuttal on logic/facts, I don't see myself doing any value addition by repeating my rebuttal again. I'd briefly explain the Bhindranwale point, where you misquote me. I never said that he was a product of casteism. And I know he was a result of Indira Gandhi's politics. But he himself exploited the "us against them" syndrome to rally the sikhs- he exploited the real and perceived sense of victimhood amongst sikhs. It is the same sense of victimhood that is channelized by those demanding reservations. Not sure why you mentioned this point. Also not sure why you seem to imply that I consider retired people as ineffective, when I didn't say it.

Finally, I have an observation to make. Almost all reservationists here believe that reservations are wrong. But their assertion is that if others are demanding it, so must we. For them, the fact that others are demanding it is a sufficient condition in itself. No one backs the assertion with a solid reasoning of how the reservations would benefit the community as a whole. I won't be surprised if no one really knows. It is the typical "me-too" syndrome. But the funny thing here is that the thing being demanded here is agreed to be wrong in principle by those demanding it. Once I get over the funny side, I feel sad about the contradiction. Because it is my own people doing it. One is filled with shame when he looks at one of the posts made in favor, where an esteemed member of the Mahasabha is citing some report that considers Jats as Shudras. And that report is given as evidence of our backwardness. Why don't we put that report on the front page of Jatland.com instead of these self-glorifying statements: "The Jat people were designated by the British Empire as a Martial Race. Martial Races were races & peoples that were naturally warlike and aggressive in battle, and possess qualities like courage, loyalty, self sufficiency, physical strength, resilience, orderliness, hard working, fighting tenacity and military strategy. Col. James Tod notes that The Jats hold place amongst the 36 royal races of ancient India."
We can either call ourselves shudra or kshatriya. If we call ourselves both depending on the situation, then we are the worst opportunists that can be.

Example of Bhinderwala, he was not product of casteism but totally for political reasion. It was a congress party internal game. he was looking after a small gurdawara in a vill of Firojpur dist, to counter sr Darbara singh, Giani Jail singh & madam Indira Gandhi brought him on popular platform, and later on of course he joined bad anti national gange & became problem for everyone.Bhinderwala & darbara were jatts. It is absolutely wrong to say that people favouring reservation have no patience, Also donot consider Retd people ineffective, they can do much more what some people can immagine, by the way, your PM is also a Retd person & all the young jats who are practical, know the ground reality & love their community are holding the flag of the moment in the front. Look every indidual has a right to ask his community people to get unitted for such a noble cause, is there anything wrong in it & thus such remark is uncalled for & needs to be ignored. I do believe that reservation should be done away for every one, but in present situation best way of offence is to get inside & finish it. The reservation has come in education, in promotions, in election for various positions. Take a example of a viilage having some population of SC, BC/OBC, & majority of jats, in present system, jat can only become Sarpanch once out of four terms, if we are included in obc than two tenures are assured. In the end I must say that there is no disadvantage in, jats getting reservation in present situation. therefore, once again with boh hands folded, request all jats to join the moment for the reservation at centre, inHP, J&K, Punjab, MP & Haryana. Get unitted for the noble cause.

 

[jitendershooda]

There was a thread on this where all this was discussed in detail. Sorry I cant write it down again as you have said in previous post.

Hope you may find answers to your questions that you have asked from those who are supporting reservation. Here there are two cases .... 1) You might be in sink with me/us 2) You will be having different thoughts.

In both cases its a matter of perception and on that and this thread I dont find anything enough that can change my views to support this and this might be the case with you too. Some people are dangeriously optimistic and some are like us .

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20340

Also it will be nice if we club these two threads and carry on this healthy discussion at a single place, so that others coming in future can find variety of views.

 

[fateh]

Dear Kapil, I am sorry if I have misquoted Bhinderwala. Yes , you never mention about retd people & my etire third post except Bhinderwala, is not on your points, I think, I forgot to mention . Brother, I have gone through all your posts, i have menioned in my post no 2. Inferiority complex etc are individual traits & has negligible effect even if it has, and that also only on negligible numbers. Please donot bother about others they will say something in either situation. Today every one is so aware that it will not have self ristricting effect. Minas are not seen in oher fields but why cannt we take example of yadavas they are certainly doing much batter than even jats, now in these days in all fields. I agree that Govt jobs going to be further decreased but wait even in pvt sector reservation will trouble people, infact upto some extant, it has already started.
Please read my first post on your thread, you may be clear about my ideas. Since my child hood I have been airing my views aginst reservation & specially community based, but over a long period, with a wast experience & understanding the gound reality I have decided to ask reservation for all communities so that the desease can be cured at the earliest. I have done masters in History also & read views of many historians including col tod, really speaking no body is sure, these are interperatation by these people. but why are we going into these things, brother, jat will remain jat in either condition. Do you consider jats of UP, Rajesthan &Dehli inferrior than jats of Haryana, I donot think you do. Kapil I still feel in present cercumstances, there is no harm if jats are given the faciliy. Oh yes if some people are working on reservaion with aim of some political agenda that is certainly wrong & I DID MENTION THIS POINT TO MR RAKESH SANGWAN VERY CLEARLY IN PREVIOUS THREAD ON THE SUBJECT. Brother I again feel sorry if you got hurt by my post in any manner. regards

 

[fateh]

My dear Kapil, another poit in favour of reservation is that so called upper castes brahamans & banias were never for us, with us and we really cannot match their canning mind. Also they always considered us inferior & naver offered respectable place socially. It is wellknown fact that these above two communities are mainly responcible for down grading socially and economically, ohter communities & specially jats. You will agree wih me that in democratical setup strenght lies wih majoriy, we cannot progress alone, we have to go with majoriy openion. There is no bravery in standing alone like a fool. Brother belive me, earlier BCs & most of OBCs community people used to prefer jat in comparisionto Ahirs/Gujjars but after Ahirs & Gujjars became OBC, preference has shifted towards them. There fore we as a community are standing alone. Though, human being is one, these caste religion etc are man made, but as per history available, personality traits & profession we are certainly more close to Ahirs, Gujjars, Mallies, Rajputs etc (rajput is not a caste but a class, some boys collected from many communities & given to Raja for the safety of public and slowly they became a seperate class now called caste. Thus, it is batter to be with people who are more equal, like minded & who give you more respect and their interests are more close to us. Kapil you are not wrong at your place but teaching by slef example will notdo any good o our community in pervailing situation. There fore, once again I reques all jats including my brother Kapil Dalal o get united & work for the cause. Regards

 

[vikram.dahiya]

Sarvkhap panchayat on jat reservation

BAI RAKESH,

EB TAK TO HAMANE JAT RESERVATION KE LIYE KUCHH NAHI KIYA THA, LEKIN AB KARNA CHAH RAHE H. AUR HAMIRI ES KOSHISH ME AAP JAISE BADE BHAIYON KA BHI SATH CHAHIYE. JAT RESERVATION KI LADAI KO AAGE BADHATE HUYE, "DAHIYA KHAP" 1st. Feb. 2009 KO KHARKHAUDA ME "SAVRKHAP PANCHAYAT" KA AAYOJAN KAR RAHI H. ES SARVKHAP PANCHAYAT ME HARYANA KE ALAVA AUR BHI STATES KI PANCHAYAT HISSA LEGI. JATO KI ES LADAI KO AAGE AAGE BADHANE KE KIYE "JATLAND.COM" KE SABHI MEMBERS KE BAHUT JARURAT.

ESLIYE AAP SABHI "JATLAND.COM" ME MEMBERS SE NIVEDAN H, KI ES PANCHAYAT ME HISSA LE AUR JATO KI AAWAJ KO BULAND KARE.

JAI JAT.

bhai S.S baat to apki gyaan ki s, par kadhe iss JL ki thread likhan ta elawa iss mudhe par bahar koi kaam karya s. aade to bhai pahle bi kai baar baat ho li s. aur bhai jin hoshiyaar balka ki baat kare s tare berge jo degree le re unki ghinti kitni s. baniye ki naukri me unn bi reservation ki koi jarurat koni par sarkari me pade s, chaudhar bi sarkari naukri me s baniye ki me to sirf pet baran ka kaam s. jisne bhartti a sipahi hona ho usme hoshiyaari koni aarakshan a chahiye . iss aarakshan me ekla naukri a koni isme form baran ki fees ummar aur bi kai ryaat s. yaha thread likhe ta reservation bandh to ho koni, tahre kisse bi sansad ne aaj tai iske khilaaf loksabha me boola ho to batao , we bool bi koni sakte pher tahri kon sunega bhai. baat to tahri adrashwadi s par kimme kaam to koni aawe kyoki iske aawaj uthhan khatir tahre me kisse pe bi time konya . naukri jaruri s ghaar kya ne baddi mushkil ta pada likhya ke iss kabil banaya s naukri gai to aur kimme kaam koni ho , ho bi to kaam khatir itne paise koni howe.

 

[piush_tomar]

Hi Everyone,

I have been reading reports about Jat Mahasabha demanding reservations for Jats. Though I am new to the forums, I am sure the issue must have been discussed here earlier. As with every issue, I am sure people would have varying views. I strongly believe that reservations would do more harm than good for India in general and Jats in particular. Want to see how many like minded Jats are there and if there is something we can do to exercise influence.

Kapil

Friends,


YES WE NEED RESERVATION IN JOBS AND EDUCATION

First of all people who are saying they are against Jat reservation they actually became insensitive. Politically we are so poor that we hardly have any thing for our community on national level. Economically as we know over 80% Jat population living in village and totally dependent on agriculture. We already going down as far as agriculture land holding is concerned. People who were having 100 bigha land, now they have only 8 bigha because of division and expansion of family. There is very bad economic and social condition spreading in UP and other states. Jat younger generation is trapped in vicious cycle of unemployment as less holding of land and poor employment.
Our education system is extremely bad in rural area. When these young boys and girls try to get admission in metro city for higher education and technical education they hardly able to qualify it as their education background is extremely week and backward. They don’t have any technical college in rural area. Only people who are living in cities they can do better in every way may be its education or jobs but what about the people and population in rural area? Are they on the same level as we are?
Sitting here in AC room and living the life of metros turned our mind totally insensitive.
I don’t required reservation for myself but I need it for our community who is socially, economically and politically weak and backward.

YES WE NEED RESERVATION IN JOBS AND EDUCATION

 

[piush_tomar]

Yes Appreciated

Bhaisahab,
Thats true what you written here..I fully agree with you.

Piyush Tomar

those who atre opposing jat reservation..
just see the progres sof yadavs in UP and bihar..

after the implementation of mandal commsion in 90's ...in last 15-20 years..yadavs progressed alot..both politically an economically..

ek time pe bihar main thakuron ka aur kayasth ka varchasv tha..
they were the political force..ab yadav no1 hain wahan ..

see the situation in UP...JAATON ko bahut peeche kar diya hai yadavs ne..

haryana main hi dekh lo..PGI rohtak main kitne yadavs hain..(see the comments of jitender hooda in another thread)

humne progess kar lee hai iska matlab yeh nahee ki har jat khush hai sukhi hai..
gaon main jaakar dekho.. jaaton ki haalat.. naukri ke bina kitn eki jat criminal bante jaa rah ehai..
aur jab yadav aur gujjar obc main hain toh jat kyon nahe e..
jabki gaon main teeno ka social and ecomy status same hai..
even gujjas are highly rich in haryana jat kahin nahe ehain usnke saamen this is the fact..koree pride main kuch nahee dhara..

 

[kapdal]

Dear Piyush,

I was deeply impressed with the precision with which you replicated your profound message. Absolute gospel truth has no variation whatsoever and this was truly reflected in your messages. Whatever the argument, you didn't waver even slightly and destroyed them mercilessly with the absolute words of wisdom that you (And only you) had. But I have one grudge (some people are never satisfied). You have JUST replied to ONLY 6 of the 94 posts preceding your own with your profound message. What about the other 88!!?? Were these people less worthy of your attention. I felt personally offended that only ONE of my posts was worthy of your profound message. Just by sheer probability (since I posted many more), more of my posts should have been selected. Please consider this as a request to spread your message to each and every post without any discrimination (Not that I need to remind you, but you are fighting against discrimination against Jats in the first place by demanding reservations). And just to let you know it would do wonders to your activity/points level on Jatland (not that you need any selfish motives, but even Saints have rankings you know and Jatland has come up with this brilliant method of rewarding special people like you). Thanks again for those wonderful words. Looking forward to quick action on my request.

Yours faithfully,
An Insenstive bugger sitting in AC

Friends,


YES WE NEED RESERVATION IN JOBS AND EDUCATION

First of all people who are saying they are against Jat reservation they actually became insensitive. Politically we are so poor that we hardly have any thing for our community on national level. Economically as we know over 80% Jat population living in village and totally dependent on agriculture. We already going down as far as agriculture land holding is concerned. People who were having 100 bigha land, now they have only 8 bigha because of division and expansion of family. There is very bad economic and social condition spreading in UP and other states. Jat younger generation is trapped in vicious cycle of unemployment as less holding of land and poor employment.
Our education system is extremely bad in rural area. When these young boys and girls try to get admission in metro city for higher education and technical education they hardly able to qualify it as their education background is extremely week and backward. They don’t have any technical college in rural area. Only people who are living in cities they can do better in every way may be its education or jobs but what about the people and population in rural area? Are they on the same level as we are?
Sitting here in AC room and living the life of metros turned our mind totally insensitive.
I don’t required reservation for myself but I need it for our community who is socially, economically and politically weak and backward.

YES WE NEED RESERVATION IN JOBS AND EDUCATION

 

[sanjeev_balyan]

Piyush bhai, sab ko alag alag reply ki jaroorat na thi.

 

[dahiya68ns]

Reservation for Jats.

Dear Kapil,

Do you think Jats particularly of Haryana need reservation ? Should our so called leaders not to take up other issues like eductaion, public health, public transports, social values, as all of these are in bad state in Haryana. Dont u think reservation bring deficiency in quality ? We strongly oppose reservation. Rather I am of the view no reservation be given to any caste in Northern India. If our policy makers really want to do something, the most needed is upliftment and improvement of education. It is very shameful for Haryana that board results are 27 & 28 %. The states like Jharkhan, Chattisgarh, Uttrakhand where there are lot of exterme conditions, are far more better to Haryana. Only some vested people are organization platform for resveration.

Hi Everyone,

I have been reading reports about Jat Mahasabha demanding reservations for Jats. Though I am new to the forums, I am sure the issue must have been discussed here earlier. As with every issue, I am sure people would have varying views. I strongly believe that reservations would do more harm than good for India in general and Jats in particular. Want to see how many like minded Jats are there and if there is something we can do to exercise influence.

Kapil

 

[kapdal]

Dear Kapil,

Do you think Jats particularly of Haryana need reservation ? Should our so called leaders not to take up other issues like eductaion, public health, public transports, social values, as all of these are in bad state in Haryana. Dont u think reservation bring deficiency in quality ? We strongly oppose reservation. Rather I am of the view no reservation be given to any caste in Northern India. If our policy makers really want to do something, the most needed is upliftment and improvement of education. It is very shameful for Haryana that board results are 27 & 28 %. The states like Jharkhan, Chattisgarh, Uttrakhand where there are lot of exterme conditions, are far more better to Haryana. Only some vested people are organization platform for resveration.

Dahiya sahab, welcome to the club. Not sure why you are asking me these questions, as I have been whole heartedly opposing reservations ...