Jats : Aryan or Scythian ?

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Satbir

Please stop making assumptions about 'Aryans". No one has been able to show up " Aryan" as a race.

In the Rig veda, the term "Brahmin" appears only once, that also only in the last mandal or the 10th book, which is a late interpolation.

The Rig Veda is not a "Brahmin" document.

So please let us get off this " everything is the wily Brahmin's fault".

Jat goth names appear for 60 goths.

How do you explain that ?
 
Mr Raman,

Why don't you find some other site for your 'kidhan' niceties ? This site is for Hindu Jats and you want to open a chat session in the middle of a, well, debate. Were you dozing when you opened this forum and started typing away without even bothering to find out what the discussion was all about. Instead of jabbering away in Punjabi, why don't you give Haryanvi a try ? That would seem more appropriate for this site. Move on, Raman.
 
ramandeep,

have you got something meaningful to contribute or are you just using this forum as a chat room. Cut the 'kidhan' stuff and jabber away in punjabi on some other site. As it is you stand out as a non-Jat on a hindu Jat site. So spare us the non-serious stuff and do everyone a favour by 'kidhaning' elsewhere. I hope you weren't dozing when you entered the forum. You don't seem to be overly concerned about the topic at hand and all you're doing is eating away precious webspace with your riff-raff talk.

BYE.
 
ramandeep,

have you got something meaningful to contribute or are you just using this forum as a chat room. Cut the 'kidhan' stuff and jabber away in punjabi on some other site. As it is you stand out as a non-Jat on a hindu Jat site. So spare us the non-serious stuff and do everyone a favour by 'kidhaning' elsewhere. I hope you weren't dozing when you entered the forum. You don't seem to be overly concerned about the topic at hand and all you're doing is eating away precious webspace with your riff-raff talk.

BYE.
 
Ram Ram 2 all ...

Dear Satbir/Vidya/whoever you are (all 3 posts have the same IP):

I was talking to Sunny Singh. He is a Jat Sikh poster who knows his shit when it comes to jat history. Hence the Punjabi salutation.

He is/was a regular poster on this site and we were having a nice long-winded discussion on the "Jat - Ahir relationshp" thread.

And I have contributed to discussions all over this site. Par vaise bhi, tujhe kya oye?

Jatu basha thaane main sikhya doonga!
(actually Im kidding its not that good)

Regards and chill out man,

RSS.
 
Ravi Chaudhary (Sep 24, 2004 04:15 p.m.):
Satbir

Please stop making assumptions about 'Aryans". No one has been able to show up " Aryan" as a race.

In the Rig veda, the term "Brahmin" appears only once, that also only in the last mandal or the 10th book, which is a late interpolation.

The Rig Veda is not a "Brahmin" document.

So please let us get off this " everything is the wily Brahmin's fault".

Jat goth names appear for 60 goths.

How do you explain that ?
Click to expand...


Hi Ravi bhai,

The Rig Veda has plenty of Jat gotra names mentioned, right?

What about the other vedas? Arthava, yajur etc? Do they have as heavy a Jat influence?
I ought to know as my dad's side are Arya Samajhis but I never took an interest.
So please bata de-na,

Thanks,
 
ramandeep,

have you got something meaningful to contribute or are you just using this forum as a chat room. Cut the 'kidhan' stuff and jabber away in punjabi on some other site. As it is you stand out as a non-Jat on a hindu Jat site. So spare us the non-serious stuff and do everyone a favour by 'kidhaning' elsewhere. I hope you weren't dozing when you entered the forum. You don't seem to be overly concerned about the topic at hand and all you're doing is eating away precious webspace with your riff-raff talk.

BYE.
 
Dear Vidhya

Allow me to stop this digression of your, comment on Ramandeep at the pass, before it gets unhealthy.

Ramandeep is very much of a Jat. He may be more familar with Punjabi.Punjabi is more expressive in somethings. I also use it.

Any language is and should be welcome.

Do note we are communicating here in English.

If I was you, I would delete this comment completely and apologise

Ramandeep. please take Vidya's comment in a good natured way.

To answer the other question, the other Vedas and subsequent Indian literature, including the Ramayana, the Mahrbaharat contain many references to the Jats.

The Gotra of Lord Ram is Kukur, Kak, which is also a Jat Goth. I made a post about this

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1561
see also
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1599

Undoubtedly there are references to Jat goths found in Literature , geographically from India to Mesopotamia to Europe.

If we to approach the subject objectively, we should be prepared to take into account these references, which go back to 2200 BCE in Mesopotamia, and not simply pooh pooh them away , or get bogged down into an Aryan V Scythian labels or anything else. or what religion they followed then or now

The subject has to be looked at from a Jat perspective independent of the other streams of thought


Ramandeep

The topic is being kept to a narrow focus to help Satbir and us reach some common ground, hence we may as well concentrate on one issue, one source- the Rig Veda in an ancient enough text- 3000 BCE to 2000 BCE.


The Rig veda is not a Brahmin document

Over 60 Jat goths are mentioned

Over 10 rishis also have Jat goths


Ravi
 
ramandeep,

why don't you 'kidhan' on a punjabi site instead of degenerating this reasonably intellectual discussion into a chat session. Post something if you have something meaningful to contribute instead of eating into precious webspace.
 
Vidya,

oi ... chup hone ke liye kya loge?

bas bhi kar!!!

Ravi Bhai,

Thanks!

If we're assuming that these Jat gotras exist in the Rig Veda, then we are entitled to reject the notion that " Jat=Saka "? Am I right?
This would present the critical thinker with 2 questions:
1) putting a date on the Rig Veda
2) If the Jat are not Sakas, or of Scythian origin - then what are they?

regards,

RAM RAM
 
Kidhan Ramandeep, ki hal ya? Yaar, main mara motha break lai laya.

Maybe I should stop with the Panjabi, we do not want to piss of the Panjabi Jat Grewal. Or the Malik/Ghatwal Jat whose ancestors (unknown to him) hail from Afghanistan.

Yaaro, don’t forget where you came from.

Best Wishes,
 
Ramandeep (Sep 26, 2004 05:24 p.m.):
V

Ravi Bhai,

Thanks!

If we're assuming that these Jat gotras exist in the Rig Veda, then we are entitled to reject the notion that " Jat=Saka "? Am I right?
*****************

NO we are not right, in doing that.

**************

This would present the critical thinker with 2 questions:
1) putting a date on the Rig Veda
2) If the Jat are not Sakas, or of Scythian origin - then what are they?




regards,

RAM RAM
Click to expand...

Re 2, there is no conflict. both answers are correct, in varying degrees

there is also the timeline as well as the geograhical issues

ravi
 
Hi Sunny,

Main teek haa! Tusi kimme ho?

To Ravi Bhai(or actually open question to both of you),

I am a little confused.
I had an argument with a friend of mine, a bit of right-wing hindu punjabi, who is hell-bent on denying any existence of foreign tribes (eg Sakas) entering the sub-continent and forming caste-based communities (Jat,Gujjar,Ahir,later Rajput etc).

On this whole Rig Veda issue ... I said to him that gotras like "Maur", "Sahota", "Attri", "Sansi" all exist in the Rig Veda.

To which he said "well if the Rig Veda is upto 5000 years old and the Sakas didnt come till 2000 years after that - then surely Jats are a race belonging natively to the indian subcontinent?" And none of this 'we came from outside' talk.

I said that it was not concrete that only one Saka influx occured into the subcontinent. I said that there had been many, and there were a few historians who had said that too ...

Help! What are your views/comments on this.
 
Hi Raman,

Vadheya Vadheya! Sada vi fateh fateh ya!

If I may interject on Ravi’s points – I personally do not believe the people we call Jats today were in India during the Rg Veda.

Regards,
 
Hi Raman,

“On this whole Rig Veda issue ... I said to him that gotras like "Maur", "Sahota", "Attri", "Sansi" all exist in the Rig Veda.”

You’re a smart guy, do the math. Take the total population of Maurs, Sahota, Sansi, etc. and work backwards at 25 years per generation. How many years can you go back – 1200 B.C.? Hardly.

Better yet - take the entire Jat population! I think we only have a handful of major famines in India over the last 200 years, some of which did not affect Jats directly. And of course some wars. The total population of Jats in 1925 was around 9 million, now its about 35 million, but this is due to global population explosion.

Best Wishes,
 
Hi Sunny,

You raise quite a good point.

How about if we clumped Rajputs, Ahirs and Gujjars and added it to that mix?
(I dont know populations of these 3 - sorry!)
Do you think it'd make a difference?

I mean after all there has been some caste mobility amongst the above ...
 
Hi Guys,

Ravi and Raman - this should answer both of your questions:

All these groups - Jats, Gujars, Ahirs, and Rajputs - allowed some native people to enter their fold.

Regards,
 
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