Kashmir :whats The Right Solution

[rakeshdahiya]

cant be resolved through force...

Respected deswal Ji,

The examples that i have given were in the context that complicated problems like Kashmir cant be resolved through force...u r right Vietnam and US war was fought over ideologies...but the Americians were forced to withdraw and what happend to core issue of Ideology...Vietnam is still a communist state...similarly let me quote the current Iraq problem...mighty US army dethroned Saddam with thier militry power...but post war the situation in IRAQ has worsened and now US dont know what to do or how to react....similarly Kashmir cant be solved thru war..........bakee jahan tak ploiticians to galee dene or unkee indecisiveness ka sawal hai.....to kya hum Democracy choodd deen or desh main military rule lagoo kar deen.......

I again reiterate....Kashmir can only be resoved thru talks and the best solution in my opinion is that the current LOC be changed to international border....

No, Rakesh - these "Examples' are not correct. Even American constitution does not allow any of its states to gain "independence". Vietnam is not a US territory - the war in Vietnam was the war between two ideologies, not a territorial dispute. Taiwan is not the part of Chinese mainland - it is a separate island and it wants to remain separated from China only because of communism. Because of common language (Chinese), Taiwan seems more tied to China than any other country. And the day is not very far when Taiwan will be another province of China, like Hong Kong is now. China never abandoned its claim over Hong Kong, nor will do so in case of Taiwan. Let any country even talk about Taiwan's independence - you see Chinese reaction. Our leaders have shown weakness and have allowed the Kashmir issue to be internationalised, to some extent.

And similarly about North Korea - it is not a border dispute with any country. See Iran's example - it is not ready to succumb to US pressure on nuclear issue. Today, every foreigner knows Iranian President's name - very few know the name of India's PM.

And as I said, we should discuss Kashmir issue only on one point - how to regain the lost part of Kashmir from Pakistan - nothing else. Only weak nations think about "non-military or peaceful" solutions insofar as their own national boundaries are concerned. India is a vast country, why should it be bogged down on the question of its own territories?
.

 

[rakeshdahiya]

we should not solve the kashmir problem

Dear Rajeev,

so do u mean that we should not solve the kashmir problem or should not waste time and efforts in this direction because even if its solved peace will not prevail???

Those of you who believe that by solving the Jammu and Kashmir problem, peace will prevail with Pakistan and we will wallow in love and friendship read the book Pakistan - A failed State (or at least try reading pages 117 - 131 ). You will then get to know the real psyche of our neighbours and why they act the way they do.

And by the way, the TIMES magazine is more interested in looking after the interests of USA than of India or any third world country.

 

[rakeshdahiya]

Deswal Sir,

Problem to hai......we have lost thousands of troops, thousands of our innocent kashmiri citizens have lost thier lives and property.....billions or rupees spent on arms and ammunations...which could have been spend on progress and education.....and the list is endless.....samasyaa to hai....

अगर हम और आप ऐसे ही सोचते रहे तो समझो कश्मीर गया हाथ से ! और समस्या है ही कहाँ - पाकिस्तान ही चिल्ला रहा है कश्मीर की 'समस्या' के बारे में - चिल्लाने दो उसे -

 

[rraajjeevv]

Dear Rajeev,

so do u mean that we should not solve the kashmir problem or should not waste time and efforts in this direction because even if its solved peace will not prevail???

I am just saying that any treaty signed with Pakistan is going to be nothing more than a piece of toilet paper. If you have gone through the book we can discuss about it in detail.

The struggle in J & K became violent only after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan. The jehadis nurtured by Pakistan who had become jobless were then diverted to Jammu and Kashmir. If you solve that problem, where do you think those jehadis would go to? Remember that the main reason for the creation of Pakistan was that Hindus and Muslims can not live together. So creating a new theatre of conflict for them in India is not a big deal. These jehadis are controlled by the Pakistani army. Don't forget Pakistan has been ruled directly by the Army for half its existence and indirectly in the remaining period.

The joke about the Pakistani army is that 'Every country has an army, but Pakistan army has a country'.

If you have time to read the book, you will undesratnd what I am trying to say, else it is futile.

And I am not saying that we should not solve the Jammu and Kashmir problem. What I am saying is that we need to think of long term consequences of the actions when solving hte problem.

You are using flawed analogies by comparing US conflict with Vietnam with that of India's internal problem. Fighting a war in foreign terriorty is altogether different. Moreover it was not just US fighting the Vietnamese, China and USSR were helping Vietnam.

Similarly the comparison with US action in Iraq is not valid with the J & K context.

.....billions or rupees spent on arms and ammunations...which could have been spend on progress and education.....and the list is endless.....samasyaa to hai....
You seem to be influenced a lot by the foreign media. Earlier you commented how Times magazine mentioned that Kashmir is one of the nuclear flashpoints.

India's expenditure on defence is low compared to world standards. It is less than 3% of its GDP, which is low compared to China or Pakistan (i have brought these two countries in picture, because they are our neighbours).
The biggest killer in India is corruption . Rajiv Gandhi in late 1980s remarked that out of 1 rupee spent by the government, only 15 paise reached the beneficiary. Instead of moaning about expenditure on defence, we should try to get rid of corruption in every walk of life. At least we can then that money in development activities such education, reducing poverty.

 

[pnauhwar21]

No sane person wants to unnecessarily fight and that includes aam janta of both India and Pakistan. I have a pakistani colleague here, when I asked him about the general feeling of public on Kashmir in pakistan - he said almost everyone there is also not happy the way kashmir issue is being treated..its all propaganda of their government just to divert peoples attention from economic and social condition of the country to these worthless issues just like our governments keep on talking about mandir-masjid and reservations when there are far more grave problems in the country..

Nehru-gandhian governments made a big mistake of letting POK out of hand for 'God only knows' what reason. But now we have a situation where kashmir is divided between POK and our Kashmir. Now, the condition of POK is even worse than Indian kashmir as the people there don't even have basic rights of voting and no development at all. While Indian kashmir is boiling due to the crap militants who don't have anything better to do in life.

I believe, having a fight with pakistan and trying to grab POK is not practical in today's condition. One reason is that both countries are nuclear capable and any silly mistake is only going to cost the blood of innocent people on both sides. Secondly, that will not solve the ever growing militancy - we will see rise of more militants backed by muslim extremists all over the world. Isn't there enough bombings happening already all over India in garb of kashmir problem?

Kashmir is such a beautiful place and just see what has become of it just because of the silly mindsets of people claiming its theirs. Militants also know that India is not going to cede its part of kashmir, but they just want to continue as they have nothing else to do and are fed by wrong teachings of their massiahs. A place which could have generated millions of dollars through tourism for both India and Pakistan is just burning for no sane reason.

My solution : Start a reverse propaganda for kashmir, start telling the people of both India and Pakistan about the ills of this continuous fighting and what is the actual potential of kashmir..maintain LOC as the final line between 2 kashmirs..let pakistan take care of other half..but a very stern message should be sent to Pakistan and its militants that after this no other stupid action on their part will be tolerated..remove the special status given to kashmir..every indian should be able to buy land there and do business/job whatever..Let the militants know that their fight is useless and unnecessary, they should rather try to do business and provide jobs to people on both sides of kashmir - tell this to every citizen of kashmir whether hindu or muslim so that they also know the futility of supporting terrorism and dreaming of so-called azad kashmir..After all this too, if pakistan keeps on supporting terrorism, then give free hand to our army to go into their territory and destroy the training camps..have a electric fence all over the LOC so that nobody can cross..have high tech monitoring and give more money to our army personnel who can't enjoy their family life there..

And last but not the least, no discussion is futile even if its on Jatland and nobody is hearing us..maybe one of us (high possibility of me) becomes head of state and thinks about these solutions and implements them..be Optimist guys

 

[rakeshdahiya]

Dear Prashant,

As usual ur post was good with sound reasoning but the best part that i liked is "And last but not the least, no discussion is futile even if its on Jatland and nobody is hearing us..maybe one of us (high possibility of me) becomes head of state and thinks about these solutions and implements them..be Optimist guys "

Keep it up. Cheers!!!!

And last but not the least, no discussion is futile even if its on Jatland and nobody is hearing us..maybe one of us (high possibility of me) becomes head of state and thinks about these solutions and implements them..be Optimist guys

 

[dolly2003]

A solution for kashmir problem !

Exchange of Population as the Solution:

The problem between India and Pakistan (and Bangladesh) remains because what was natural after a partition of a country, the exchange of population, never took place. Pakistan and Bangladesh has driven out most of their non-Muslim population, but Muslims are still in India, even after their homeland was created. This is the most unnatural event in the world. In other cases of partition elsewhere in the world, there were always exchange of populations. The cases of Greece-Turkey, Germany-Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria-Turkey, Poland-Germany, Bosnia-Serbia, Croatia-Serbia, are the recent examples where full-scale exchanges of population were organized along with the partition. In fact, it is unnecessary to partition a country if the populations are not to be exchanged.
Exchange of population between the proposed state of Pakistan and India was mentioned in the plan of the partition of India made by Rajagopalacharya in 1943 in collaboration with Mahatma Gandhi. Dr.B.R. Ambedkar has mentioned in detail in 1945 the ways and means of that exchange of population in his book, ‘Pakistan or Partition of India’, (AMS Press, New Delhi, 1945). He said, “Assuming it does become a problem, will it be a baffling problem? Experience shows that it is not a problem, which it is impossible to solve. To devise a solution for such a problem it might be well to begin by asking what are the possible difficulties that are likely to arise in the way of a person migrating from one area to another on account of political changes…….. The difficulties can be easily removed by the two States of Pakistan and Hindustan agreeing to a treaty..”

it is the responsibility now for the two governments to think about such a treaty after wasting 60 years since 1945.

The purpose of the partition was to create a homeland for the Muslims of the undivided India. When it was done, the logical question is: why are Muslims still in India and if they really want that much to stay in India, why should Pakistan or Bangladesh exist at all? As it is unrealistic to think about the united India once again, as it was before 1947, a realistic solution is to exchange populations, which should have taken place in 1947 as a logical consequence of the partition.
There is no other solution, which can satisfy both sides.
In a solution that can work, both sides have to gain something. In the proposed solution, everyone gains something. India gains in terms of reduced population.

But,the problem of Kashmir remains because none of the countries is arguing logically. If Pakistan only insist that it has the right to absorb the rest of the Kashmir because of religion and if India insists on its secularism and as a result refuses to consider any alternative solution, there is no common ground where these two sides will meet. Thus, any discussions just like those before will be futile.


It is thus essential to change the mindset of these countries so that they can think about the ‘unthinkable’ taboo that has prevented them to reach a logical compromise. That ‘unthinkable’ taboo is the remains of the illogical and asymmetric system imposed by India on itself, by not going through the logical steps required at the time of the partition in 1947. If the exchange of population would have taken place in 1947, Kashmir problem could not have emerged. Just like Bengal and Punjab in 1947, Kashmir would have been partitioned long time ago. Time has come to take these logical steps, which can solve the problem once for all and remove the fear of a nuclear war in the subcontinent.

 

[rakeshdahiya]

Dolly ji thanks for you post....though i dont agree with ur idea of exchange of population as it doesnt seems to be possible at this stage. The misery of living ones home and belongings is something we all can feel. Dont if u have read Kushwant Singh's nove "A Train to Pakistan" but if u have u will realise how ppl have suffered duting partition. secondly for a moment even if we agree to divide kashmir on religious line then India would be left with only Leh and Jammu, as the valley is still dominted by Muslims.

What would u think should be the solution in the present context....keeping all ground realities in mind???

However i appreciate ur arguments which seems to be totally fresh and have added a new dimension to this discussion.......lets see what others have to say about this....

 

[mann123]

I totally agree with Dolly jee as Pakistan was demanded on the basis of religion and named as Islamic state so all Islam follower should have gone to Islamic state.

Bhai rukee rahio pata nahin kitne pakistan aur bane ge abhee to (India is having second largest population in the world). Muslim population has grown 6 times as compare to 3 times of hindu population since 1947.

for Pakistan kyu thuukk ne baloo re hoo accept kyo nahee kar lete ke wo Dost banene wala nahee hai. humhare liyee bhee achaa hoga

"It's better to have good enemy rather than bad friend"

 

[deswal100184]

kashmir is now in its true shape

respected people,
All of you who have posted replies to this very chronic and mishandled issue,i would like to inform that if we wanted to occupy kashmir then we could have done that in the 71 war.but why did Mr. Nehru did not capture the whole of it and brought UNO in picture given that the then Raja Hari singh of J&K had signed the paper to merge his land into ours.The fact was that the area beyond the current LOC was too hostile to india because of probably religious and cultural reasons.The culture and the ways of the people of the POK resemble greatly to the adjacent pakistani areas as compared to the indian.Plus the greatest deciding factor is the religion.People of Kasmir are largely uneducated.And follow the mullahs who have been fulfilling their needs by making those people believe whatever they want them to.
The solution can never be the freedom of Kashmir as the state is incapable of catering to its needs(social and security and many others).

ALL OF THIS SAID,Pakistan does not want this issue to be resolved as kashmir allows a lot of aid to come into pakistan in the name of jehad.and now pakistan is also getting a lot of aid from america for allowing its forces to operate from its land.And the pakistani politicians have used this issue to make their political ends meet from time to time.
However the solution is to recognize the loc as the international border.But it is going to be very ulikely that pakisan really takes some honest and consistent steps to resolve this issue.

 

[rohittewatia]

The peace process is just something to keep the people entertained...just to show that the two governments are doing something and not sitting idle. Even if we give whole kashmir to them, the problem will not resolve. The people's mentality has been diluted to this level that a true patriot pakistani is one who thinks and speaks ill of india.
All they can think is revenge. Now, how do people think pakistan wants to solve the kashmir problem through peace. It neither wants voting either in kashmir. One of the conditions of the UN resolution for Kashmir mass to vote was that pakistan remove their forces from present POK. It never happened.

Now, everybody knows the stupidity and cowardness of Nehru ji and congress.

The best one can do is do nothing. Indians are peace loving people.
Yes, if pakistan tries to annex some more territory, then we can go and plead with States and request them to help us.

 

[raj2rif]

Look for the Solution

Dear Members,
It is an interesting topic and solution can neither be suggested nor agreed to with a paragraph on internet. There are few aspects of the problem need to be considered, without being emotionally attached to the history.

Legal Implications: Legally entire Kashmir is the integral part of India as per the document of accession signed by the rular of Kashmir in 1947. Thus even thinking of Kashmir being part Pakistan does not make any sense. If presence of muslim population is the criteria for this thinking, then we do have more muslims in India than entire Pakistan itself.

Strategic Implications: Loosing Kashmir, leaves our entire Northern Plains vulnerable to the attacks from North either by an Independent Kashmir or her allies like Pakistan and China. Thus stategically, keeping Kashmir independent or as part of Pakistan is also not a viable option for us to discuss.

Real Situation: Over six decades of Pak occupation of the POK does not make it a viable option for us to make it part of our own land. We have enough problem to solve for ourselves, however certain areas need to be part of our part of Kashmir for example Hazipir Pass. There may be few more locations in the entire region. Pir Panjal and Zhanksar ranges are key to our defence and just can't be negotiated.

The Possible Solution: Either fight for entire Kashmir or accept the LOC as the international border. While the ground situation does not change drastically if the LOC is accepted as International Border, the political implications do change. What is important is the decision making. We have dragged this problem enough and sacrificed enough. All that we need to do is unite on one possible solution among ourselves and then implement it with impunity. Once United on the decision, we can tell Pakistan to choose one of the two. If she refuses, then we go for all out decisive military option to liberate the entire Kashmir. We can tell them in no uncertain terms that if we do choose this option, we don't blame us if our interpretation of the Kashmir border ends at Afghan border. I know it is easier said then done, but extra ordinary problem require extra ordinary solutions. The stakes are going to be high, but they are high in any case. Diplomatically we need to make our case with the democratic world to agree to our cause and make them agree to either support us or remain neutral.
One big thing is the oil. We need to create the dependency on us of the oil rich countries in most of the fields specially in the field of technology. The long war requires a whole lot of resources in terms of energy andwe need to amass enough reserves to maintain the momentum, otherwise it might be counter productive and even harmful to the entire cause.

I think this much is enough at this time.

 

[rakeshdahiya]

Dear Tavathia Ji,I agree with you that extra ordinary problem require extra ordinary solutions.

I would like to add one more resaon to highlight why Kashmir needs to be resolved asap:

With the latest shift in US policy of fostering closer ties with India, the most recent example being the just concluded Indo - US Nuclear Deal, mainly to contain China, kashmir has once again become important. We are once again slowly moving towards a Biopolar world, with the Chinese emargence as a strong economic and military power ( By shooting a satellite in Space from earth last week China has become the second nation on the earth with such technological capability). China will catch up with US in the next 10 years.

At that time Kashmir will become a bigger flash point with many stake holders involved, and a single spark then willignite the whole thing and may even result into the IIIrd World War.


Also if both Pakistan and India dont engage themselves productively in solving this problem then it would slowly become a religious issue then a political one, and thus becoming more complicated to resolve. Please dont make Kashmir another Palastine!!!!

 

[raj2rif]

The Will

Dear Dahiya Ji,
Yes you are right. The US interests in India are mainly due to emergence of China as a competition to them both in terms of Economy as well as Military Power. The only country that can match China in both these fields, is India and hence the US interests.
It remains to be seen, as to what our political leaders do in this situation. What they feel about it and what they read about it.
I personally fee, Kashmir is more of a problem of Political Will than any thing else. With the fear of about 18-20% muslim votes being lost if a shift is taken in the policy of apeasement of minorities, no political party is willing to take this risk. When BJP came to power, we thought that they are likely to be one, as they don't get the muslim votes in any case. However instead of making a concerted effort to solve the issue, they also fell for the vote politics. They also got kind of a plateform, when the Parliament was attacked and the entire army was moblized. I think the Vajpayee government faltered big time and lost the opportunity. May be they were not prepared and were still at shock due to the losses we sufferred in Kargil victory.

 

[saharan21]

Dear Dahiya Ji,
Yes you are right. The US interests in India are mainly due to emergence of China as a competition to them both in terms of Economy as well as Military Power. The only country that can match China in both these fields, is India and hence the US interests.
It remains to be seen, as to what our political leaders do in this situation. What they feel about it and what they read about it.
I personally fee, Kashmir is more of a problem of Political Will than any thing else. With the fear of about 18-20% muslim votes being lost if a shift is taken in the policy of apeasement of minorities, no political party is willing to take this risk. When BJP came to power, we thought that they are likely to be one, as they don't get the muslim votes in any case. However instead of making a concerted effort to solve the issue, they also fell for the vote politics. They also got kind of a plateform, when the Parliament was attacked and the entire army was moblized. I think the Vajpayee government faltered big time and lost the opportunity. May be they were not prepared and were still at shock due to the losses we sufferred in Kargil victory.

respected sir,

you are right to a certain limit. there is no doubt about that we lost many oppurtunities in the past. from prithvi raj chauhan(against gauri) to pandit nehru(1947) to indra gandhi(1971) to atal bihari vajpayee(1999).
sir you an army personal my next point might hurt you but this truth.
AFTER PARLIAMENT ATTACK OUR GOVERNMENT our government finds that our defence forces needs one month to mobolize against the enemy. thats a huge time.
i accept mobolization of troops is nt as simple as its looks. even america needed 1 month to mobolizes its forces against the taliban after september11
one thing more even the presence of american forces in pakistan and afghanistan played a significant role to stop INDIA to go for a full scale war againt the enemy
and that one month was sufficient for the world community to intervene between us and pakistan.
we still not so strong or pakistan still not so weak that we can take a bold step on our own terms.
during 1971 we had SOVIET UNION BEHIND us to support with man and material. nut now there is only one superpower THE USA and we cant take a bold step against the wishes of america.

 

[saharan21]

Dear Dahiya Ji,
Yes you are right. The US interests in India are mainly due to emergence of China as a competition to them both in terms of Economy as well as Military Power. The only country that can match China in both these fields, is India and hence the US interests.
It remains to be seen, as to what our political leaders do in this situation. What they feel about it and what they read about it.
I personally fee, Kashmir is more of a problem of Political Will than any thing else. With the fear of about 18-20% muslim votes being lost if a shift is taken in the policy of apeasement of minorities, no political party is willing to take this risk. When BJP came to power, we thought that they are likely to be one, as they don't get the muslim votes in any case. However instead of making a concerted effort to solve the issue, they also fell for the vote politics. They also got kind of a plateform, when the Parliament was attacked and the entire army was moblized. I think the Vajpayee government faltered big time and lost the opportunity. May be they were not prepared and were still at shock due to the losses we sufferred in Kargil victory.

respected sir,

you are right to a certain limit. there is no doubt about that we lost many oppurtunities in the past. from prithvi raj chauhan(against gauri) to pandit nehru(1947) to indra gandhi(1971) to atal bihari vajpayee(1999).
sir you an army personal my next point might hurt you but this truth.
AFTER PARLIAMENT ATTACK OUR GOVERNMENT our government finds that our defence forces needs one month to mobolize against the enemy. thats a huge time.
i accept mobolization of troops is nt as simple as its looks. even america needed 1 month to mobolizes its forces against the taliban after september11
one thing more even the presence of american forces in pakistan and afghanistan played a significant role to stop INDIA to go for a full scale war againt the enemy
and that one month was sufficient for the world community to intervene between us and pakistan.
we still not so strong or pakistan still not so weak that we can take a bold step on our own terms.
during 1971 we had SOVIET UNION BEHIND us to support with man and material. nut now there is only one superpower THE USA and we cant take a bold step against the wishes of america.

 

[rohittewatia]

We indians lack the spirit of aggression. Whereas, that is not the case of pakistan. Even comparing their size and their economic growth, still they can think of war.
Gaining back of POK is a distant dream, not to be fulfilled in the near future. The only solution left to us is acceptance of present LOC.

The BJP as well as congress both lack the aggressive spirit. And shiv sena can't come in the national scenario.

 

[raj2rif]

Not as Simple as it Looks

Dear Mr. Sumit Saharan,
The decision to go to war is not the simplest thing to do for any leader.
As far as time for moblization is concerned, it is not a simple process. Each army works on a moblization plan, and Indian army is no different. I am sure the army did move as per their mobilization plan. There is a lot that can be written on mobilization plan, its intricacies and problems on execution specially when we have our civilian brothers living in border area and the road network that exists from the Cantts to the border areas. It is a topic by itself.
Regarding 1971, and the role of Soviet Union. Well Soviet Union was more of a show of force rather than of any significance help to us. You may be surprise to know that they were probably the most unreliable partners. They did give us some weapons, but not the ammunition to be used with those weapons. Thus it was pure business to sell the weapons without annoying another party with the trade.
War is a complicated matter, while it is easy to make comments , its actual planning and execution does require a lot more.
To begin with we need to have reserves of all kinds. e.g. weapons, ammunitions, petroleum (the single most valuable commodity, that prevents us from taking a prolonged military action) and the equipment. Not to say the trained man power. Keeping in view the defense budget, (which comes at the cost of development), we can't keep a large standing reserve of these things and thus they all need to procured at short notice or as per the moblization plans. We do keep reserves at each level. Keeping a lot of reserves on shelf may be counter productive to nation's development. This is one of the issues. There are many more micro level problems that armed forces face.
I hope I have been able to answer your inquiry to some extent.

 

[rakeshdahiya]

Dear Rohit,

This in response to ur commnets "...And shiv sena can't come in the national scenario.."

Well bringing Shiv Sena into this will further complicate the matters.....as far as I know Shiv Sena is based on the ideology of hatred towards a particular community......and hatred is not a solution to this problem......it has to be solved amicably before the things go out of hands.......and that will require a lots of courage by the top leaders on both sides...as respected Col. saab has mentioned before that " Extraordinary problems needs Extraordinary solutions"

We indians lack the spirit of aggression. Whereas, that is not the case of pakistan. Even comparing their size and their economic growth, still they can think of war.
Gaining back of POK is a distant dream, not to be fulfilled in the near future. The only solution left to us is acceptance of present LOC.

The BJP as well as congress both lack the aggressive spirit. And shiv sena can't come in the national scenario.