The true nature of Jan Lok Pal Bill Movement

I agree but I think people forget the BIGGEST Dynasty chain ....... JAWAHARLAL NEHRU > INDIRA > RAJEEV AND SANJAY> SONIA, MENKA > RAHUL AND PRIYANKA, VARUN ( even Robert Vadra).................!!!!

No one can beat them!!!



vikda said:
Sad but this is true for Bollywood as well as Politics, heirs are from the family, even if not deserving!!
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To me it seems that he was directed not to perform so he did his duty well thats why he is still alive.
 
Jethmalani's remark on Rajiv Gandhi's Swiss account cause uproar in Rajya Sabha

A smart remark by Ram Jethmalani alluding to Rajiv Gandhi's swiss bank account created uproar in Rajya Sabha. While participating in the debate on the Lokpal bill, during his long speech, Jethmalani said, "A Swiss magazine published the names and pictures of 14 people who have their stash hidden away. It's a shame that the 14th person was India's then PM". The remark was indirect but was enough provocation for Congress MPs to create an uproar. Congressmen alleged Jethmalani of accusing a late former Prime Minister without substantiating.

Jethmalani spoke of how CBI had a reputation during its initial years which is completely tarnished due to its conspicuous misuse by government now. He asserted that the UPA will be voted out in the next elections, as they didn't pursue black money details while they'd been made public. He also recounted how the Supreme Court had slammed the government repeatedly on various accounts including its failure to recover black money.

Jethmalani took a pot-shot at Congress as he said the the old phrase, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" stands changed to "Power corrupts, and the prospect of losing power corrupts absolutely" emphasizing that UPA's ouster is inevitable.

Source : India - Behind The Lens on Facebook​
 
There is nothing wrong in discussing other side of the coin. Lokpal is not a magic wand that will eliminate corruption completely once it get implemented. There are various issues associated with Lokpal. I agree that no solution is perfect but discussion should take place on implementation. It should not be a my way or highway. In my understanding and observation,there are certain issues with JanLokpal.

1. If Janlokpal gets implemented as it is then it will be a "Big Army Of Bureaucrats/Officers". We have present ombudsman to tackle with corruption. There should not be a parallel governance. Too much red tape eventually lead to corruption.Systems should merge or devise other ways.

2. Power concentration. Centralised power can turn into a nightmare. Decentralisation of power is must in order to curb the corruption. Example: IAS, IPS. Too much power is given to IAS and IPS is a one of the cause of corruption.

3. Too much stringent laws can also prevents bureaucrats to make big decisions. Even with current laws and scrutiny, bureaucrats are hesitant to make decisions.(Businesses complain about it numerous times). After JanLokpal implementation, it might be more hard for them to make decisions.

4. No checks on JanLokpal. What if JanLokpal get corrupt. Are we going to implement one more lokpal.

In my opinion, the real cause of corruption is bad governance. Bad governance creates loopholes into the system. E.g Red Tape, less transparent system etc. Public sector in India has not gone though much of the reforms. Reforms are required in every sector in order to curb the corruption. Prevention is better than cure. Having said that, I am very thankful to Team Anna for bringing awareness among people about corruption. Team Anna's solution, JanLokpal is a step in the right direction with good intention. But every solution is subject to some analysis which is required before implementing. JanLokpal cannot be an exception. Before implementing such a big solution it is better to discuss it. And be aware of pros and cons.
 
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vikasgulia said:
1. कमाल है vp सिंह सर...2 दिन हो लिए लठ बाजते लोक सभा अर राज्य सभा में१ पिछले एक साल से जो कुछ चल रहा था, इन 2 दिनों में उसका फ्लाश्बैक हुआ१ सब पार्टियों ने अपनी स्थिथि दी१ एक एक चीज़ पे चर्चां किया: इस सब का लेखा जौका में बेचारा क्यूँकर लिखूं? You Tube पे देख लेना १

२. बाकि जवान तो इस देश में एक ही है:४० वर्ष के गबरू..समझ तो गए ही होंगे आप ;) , तो कुंसी भैंस है और के तुड़ा रही है सब उस चालीस साल के जवान पे ही लागू हो है१ हम तो गरीब प्रजा हैं, जो पैदा होते ही बुड्ढे हो जाते हैं १
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प्रधानमंत्री मनमोहन सिंह संसद में ऐसे बैठे रहते हैं, जैसे वह भारत की सरकार में अमेरिकी पर्यवेक्षक हो.
 
आप लोगो में से आज तक कितने लोगो ने इन भ्रष्टाचारियों के खिलाफ शिकायत की हैं ? आपका भी किसी न किसी भ्रष्ट अधिकारी या नेता से वास्ता पड़ा होगा अगर नहीं पड़ा तो फिर कोसना कैसा |
कानून हमेशा बनते आये हैं और बनते रहेंगे , कानून बनने से भ्रष्टाचार ख़त्म नहीं होता | लोकपाल बनने से भी भ्रष्टाचार ख़त्म नहीं हो जायेगा | आदमी तो वोही हैं इस लोकपाल के लिए कोई नए आदमी तो आयेंगे नहीं यही चोर उधर जा बैठेंगे | rti एक्ट का देहात में कितने लोगो को इसका ज्ञान हैं ? सबसे जरूरी हैं आम आदमी को उस कानून का ज्ञान और उस पर अमल करने की हिम्मत | जैसे आप लोग इन भ्रष्टो को कोस रहे हैं वैसे ही गाँव देहात में भी आम आदमी इनको कोसता रहता हैं करते कुछ नहीं | कोसने से बीमारी नहीं मिटती | बाकी हिंदुस्तानिय की या कोसन की बाण जा कोणी न्यू ऐ पीठ पाछे त अंग्रेजा ने कोसे जाया करते अर्र आगे त उनकी जी हजुरी | गिनती के लोग पैदा हुए और देश के नाम कुर्बान हुए ,वह सब लोग कहते कहते चले गए की आज ये गोरे अंग्रेज राज कर रहे और इनके जाने के बाद इनके पिठू काले अंग्रेज राज करेंगे (कांग्रेसी ) और ऐसा ही हुआ पर इन कोसनिया ने कोसन के सिवा किम्मे नहीं करा |
 
Strange arguments against Team Anna

I find it rather strange that people and the sensation hungry media are tangentially targeting Team Anna for inclination towards BJP.

With Congress in the seat of govt. and the UPA in majority, do you think that Team Anna should plead with or beg BSP, SP, BJP, BJD?

If the Congress (WHICH IS IN POWER) does not listen, Team Anna should aim its guns at BJP or others???????????

Highly illogical.



HAPPY NEW YEAR 2012: CONGRESS' GIFT TO COMMON MAN - INCREASED CNG AND PETROL PRICES (MORE ITEMS TO FOLLOW :). Have a ball of a time.
 
Failure of Lok Pal Bill was a political subterfuge by all the political parties, but Team Anna is critical of ruling party only for this fiasco. Anna started the campaign in right earnest as an apolitical entity. But the ever increasing support over a period of time made some of Anna's associates a little arrogant. By now,it is amply clear that Team Anna is anti-Congress and pro-BJP. They have no problem with corruption of Chautala, Kuldeep Bishnoi and the mother of all corruptions- Mayavati. Team Anna's anti-Congress stance and pronouncements of opposing only the Congress in the forthcoming UP election has made it more clear that they are conspicuously silent on corruption of people like Mayavati and Yeddurappa. This stance in UP will strengthen the draconian hands of the 'mother of all corruptions' ( Mayavati). Another important point is tht BJP is supportive of a strong lok pal in centre but doesn't want Lokayuktas in States under its purview. How a Lok Pal can be effective if it will not have any jurisdiction over corruption in States? BJP has the single agenda of bringing the government down but Team Anna has no problem with BJP.

80% of Anna's demands are catered by the government sponsored bill. Therefore, Anna should have shown some magnanimity and grace instead of insinuating against one single party, while many other parties with BJP in lead are equally responsible in stalling the passage of bill. They never submitted a dissenting note in the Standing Committee where the draft was discussed before presentation in Parliament but staged a drama in Parliament. Another important thing they were in favour of sending the bill back to the Standing Committee when it was being discussed in Lok Sabha. But, in Rajya Sabha they wanted voting on it. How paradoxical it was, indeed.
 
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1. Mother of corruption is congress not Mayawati, she is very late comer.

2. Team Anna had one main demand from the govt. lokpal bill that was to make CBI independent or bring it under lokpal, their another demand was accepted as group C and D were brought under lokpal by amendment in loksabha. Team Anna didn't say pass our bill, they only asked, pass a strong bill.

3. Govt. (read congress) had majority in loksabha so it had more responsibility than any other so has to take most of the blame for not passing lokpal, a strong lokpal.

4. There were many dissents against lokpal bill in standing committee from BJP and also from some congress members even.
5. Standing committee recommendations were not put in cabinet committee lokpal draft which consisted of Pranab, PC, Sibal, Naryansamy etc. all congressi.

6. BJP had 3 main demands/amendments, make CBI independent, bring Leader opposition Rajya sabha in selection committee and lokayukt should be optional (under article 252 not 253). Lokayukt part of bill was technically flawed as any law under 253 is mandatory for all states, there is no way to make it optional. Govt. was adamant to put lokayukt under 253 to make it impossible for opposition and even its own allies to accept.

7. Why was govt. adamant to keep CBI under itself, at least part of CBI which deals with anti-corruption could have been brought inder lokpal?

8. Why govt. wanted to have majority in lokpal selection committee? You have seen example of CVC where a tainted person was appointed and supreme court had to intervene to remove him.

9. Reservation under religion is prohibited in constitution but it was brought so this bill, even if passed by parliament, be strike down by the supreme court. Why govt. put this reservation in the bill when it knew that it is against constitution and will be challenged in court? They didn't want to bring lokpal but wanted to show that see, we passed lokpal but the court didn't allow.

10. Why govt. didn't say no vote in loksabha, because they had majority. BJP aksed for vote in rajyasabha as it had majority. If one majority does a wrong thing, it's OK but others dod the same, it's not OK, how paradoxical it is.

Bottom line is UPA (read congress) is in power and they could have brought a strong lokpal bill but they didn't and wanted to show that we brought the bill but opposition didn't let it become law. Lokpal was presented half-heartedly by congress because there was anger against it in the public, there are assembly elections nearby in 5 states not because it wanted to root out corruption.
 
If appointment and administrative control of Lokayukt (mini Lok Pal for States) is left outside the ambit of Lokpal, the whole purpose of introducing a strong Lok Pal will be defeated. In that case fighting against corruption in States will remain on the sweet will of the State Politicians (read MLAs and CMs). It, inter alia, means that corruption at Central level only is to be fought against as in the centre there is Congress Govt. BJP was opposing it because, they were apprehensive of some of their State leaders coming under the scanner of a strong Lokayukt on the lines of Lok Pal in the centre. What is the problem in bringing any good law even under article 253 if it is well intended and in the broader interest of the nation. Why this Colavery and wrangling by BJP on this small technicality? They should have seen the spirit and ultimate aim of that proviso. Unless a unified strong provision about appointment, terms and conditions of the State Lokayukts are introduced through a central legislation or making it a part of Lok Pal, there is no guarantee all the States will formulate any effective anti-corruption mechanism on their own. Even Team Anna wanted this to happen. But, they have now no problem with BJP opposing it. They are conspicuously silent.


Why this Colavery Colavery di....when BJP ne Lok Pal Bill kee Dhajjaiyaan uda dee>

एक फिल्म का मशहूर डायलोग याद आ रहा है :
शेखू ....माबदौलत अनारकली (read Mayavati) से इतनी हमदर्दी का सबब जानना चाहते हैं I अनारकली तुम्हारी मोहब्बत के काबिल नहीं है, उसके चेहरे पर भ्रष्टाचार के दाग हैं...अन्ना से कहो.... लोकपाल ब्रांड क्रीम का तोहफा उसे भी भिजवा दिया जाये ... यह हमारा हुक्म है .... इसकी तामील हो ....तखलिया.
 
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vpsingh said:
Failure of Lok Pal Bill was a political subterfuge by all the political parties, but Team Anna is critical of ruling party only for this fiasco. Anna started the campaign in right earnest as an apolitical entity. But the ever increasing support over a period of time made some of Anna's associates a little arrogant. By now,it is amply clear that Team Anna is anti-Congress and pro-BJP. They have no problem with corruption of Chautala, Kuldeep Bishnoi and the mother of all corruptions- Mayavati. Team Anna's anti-Congress stance and pronouncements of opposing only the Congress in the forthcoming UP election has made it more clear that they are conspicuously silent on corruption of people like Mayavati and Yeddurappa. This stance in UP will strengthen the draconian hands of the 'mother of all corruptions' ( Mayavati). Another important point is tht BJP is supportive of a strong lok pal in centre but doesn't want Lokayuktas in States under its purview. How a Lok Pal can be effective if it will not have any jurisdiction over corruption in States? BJP has the single agenda of bringing the government down but Team Anna has no problem with BJP.

80% of Anna's demands are catered by the government sponsored bill. Therefore, Anna should have shown some magnanimity and grace instead of insinuating against one single party, while many other parties with BJP in lead are equally responsible in stalling the passage of bill. They never submitted a dissenting note in the Standing Committee where the draft was discussed before presentation in Parliament but staged a drama in Parliament. Another important thing they were in favour of sending the bill back to the Standing Committee when it was being discussed in Lok Sabha. But, in Rajya Sabha they wanted voting on it. How paradoxical it was, indeed.
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Sir, I think we need to question our priorities. Why so much stress on whether Anna is pro-BJP or anti-Congress or whatever. Why get so consumed to prove it this way or that. Let's assume the worst - that Anna is hand in glove with BJP. So what? For me, this line of thinking clears the clouds of doubt that plague the mind. First, Anna has as much right to be pro or anti any party like you or me. Second, there is nothing principally wrong about being either pro-BJP or anti-Congress (or the other way round).

Anna wants some features in the bill - rightly or wrongly. BJP is more or less agreeing with him and Congress is not - rightly or wrongly. He would be a fool to oppose BJP just to be neutral. There are no brownie points in remaining neutral during a political battle. The threat of going anti-Congress during elections makes perfect sense as well. What else do you think Congress would care about - the threat to hurt should be credible. If Anna threatens all parties in the spirit of "all are corrupt", it would be playing into Congress' hands. I am glad that Anna and co have dropped the pretense of being apolitical and are getting involved in politics to get what they want. That's the way to do things in an electoral democracy.

Similarly, BJP too wants some features - rightly or wrongly. Congress is not giving that. Why should BJP accept that? I don't have any expectation even from the Congress of accepting demands they believe are not right.

Let's not have expectations of godliness from Anna and team. As usual, the debate here and all over the media has been all about personalities and who is being good and who is being bad. It is hard to find people talking about the specific proposals of the bill - and specific opinions on those proposals. Whatever little I know about it, I think all parties in the debate - Congress, BJP and Anna have some good proposals and some bad proposals.
 
Than govt. should have courage to bring it as it says in the article 253 that these legistaltions will be binding on states but govt. bill says it is optional. How you you make a provision optional when you bring it under an article in constitutions which says anything under it will be mandatory. If govt. wants to make it mandatory for states, bring it under 253 and if wants it to be optional then bring it under 252. Why this dilema in govt. thinking?

18 states already have lokayukt bill passed by assemblies, long before central govt. so let it be state govt. subject as it says in the "state list" of constitution that all state employees will be regulated by state govts. The provision in the govt. lokpal bill says not only corruption but discipline will be under lokayukt. The word discipline has wide meaning like transfers, promotions etc. too. So, lokayukt will have right to transfer/promote/demote any state employee?

There are three lists of issues/subjects on which centre and states can make legislation, federal (for parliament), state (for state assemblies) and concurrent list. Centre can not not make laws on the subjects of state list, states can not make law on federal list subjects and both can make make law on concurrent list (if any conflict, federal law will have validity). Here, centre is making a law on a subject which is in the state list, that is a clear attack on federal structure of Union of India.

This was done not to bring lakayukt but to make sure that bill doesn't pass as all regional parties will oppose it as it was evident by TMC going against it, that too being a part of ruling UPA.

Govt. is going against the constitution in lokayukt and minority reservation, why govt. wants to do that and invite supreme court intervention?

If govt. was serious in passing the bill than why around 15 congress MPs were absent on constitutional amendment vote even after party whip? Now, congress says it will take disciplinary action aganst them but nothing done yet. 2 TMC MPs went against party line and the chief whip of party has been removed, this is called disciplinary action. Why congress is still doing nothing about defaulter MPs? Because congress had no intentions to pass the constitutional amendment bill, it was just staging a drama to fool the people of India.

BJP ne dhajjiyan udai lokpal ki aur jam ke udai kyunki ye kamjor lokpal hai/tha, ye sanvidhan ke khilaf provision bana raha tha, federalism sanvidhan ka ek moolbhoot tatva hai aur isko todne ki ijajat sanvidhan nahi deta.

ndtv par rating dekhiye aap speakers ki, Sushma Swaraj, Arun Jaitly and Ram Jethmalani got highest positive ranking and congress speakers got less than half the marks.

And I do not need a filmi dialogue to prove a point, it's loud and clear even without it. :)



Any counter argument for other 9 points?


vpsingh said:
If appointment and administrative control of Lokayukt (mini Lok Pal for States) is left outside the ambit of Lokpal, the whole purpose of introducing a strong Lok Pal will be defeated. In that case fighting against corruption in States will remain on the sweet will of the State Politicians (read MLAs and CMs). It, inter alia, means that corruption at Central level only is to be fought against as in the centre there is Congress Govt. BJP was opposing it because, they were apprehensive of some of their State leaders coming under the scanner of a strong Lokayukt on the lines of Lok Pal in the centre. What is the problem in bringing any good law even under article 253 if it is well intended and in the broader interest of the nation. Why this Colavery and wrangling by BJP on this small technicality? They should have seen the spirit and ultimate aim of that proviso. Unless a unified strong provision about appointment, terms and conditions of the State Lokayukts are introduced through a central legislation or making it a part of Lok Pal, there is no guarantee all the States will formulate any effective anti-corruption mechanism on their own. Even Team Anna wanted this to happen. But, they have now no problem with BJP opposing it. They are conspicuously silent.


Why this Colavery Colavery di....when BJP ne Lok Pal Bill kee Dhajjaiyaan uda dee>

एक फिल्म का मशहूर डायलोग याद आ रहा है :
शेखू ....माबदौलत अनारकली (read Mayavati) से इतनी हमदर्दी का सबब जानना चाहते हैं I अनारकली तुम्हारी मोहब्बत के काबिल नहीं है, उसके चेहरे पर भ्रष्टाचार के दाग हैं...अन्ना से कहो.... लोकपाल ब्रांड क्रीम का तोहफा उसे भी भिजवा दिया जाये ... यह हमारा हुक्म है .... इसकी तामील हो ....तखलिया.
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There is no harm in discussing them but it should be in positive mood/perspective.

1. If you have a bigger army of public servants, you need a big army to control them. A merger of CVC with lokpal is feasible.
2. There is no power concentration, lokapl will/can be made accountable to the parliament like CAG.
3. If laws were to be implemented, this govt. would have gone long ago. CAG like institution is required which works independantly. You have seen, CAG has brought this govt. to it's feet already in 2G scam.
4. There are checks, parliament can remove lokpal, like CAG and high/supreme court judges. If CAG, EC can work independantly, why not lokpal?

Bad governance makes it more evident that we need an indepandent agency to check corruption. What is the problem in making CBI independant? If CAG, EC are working, CBI can also function.

atishmohan said:
There is nothing wrong in discussing other side of the coin. Lokpal is not a magic wand that will eliminate corruption completely once it get implemented. There are various issues associated with Lokpal. I agree that no solution is perfect but discussion should take place on implementation. It should not be a my way or highway. In my understanding and observation,there are certain issues with JanLokpal.

1. If Janlokpal gets implemented as it is then it will be a "Big Army Of Bureaucrats/Officers". We have present ombudsman to tackle with corruption. There should not be a parallel governance. Too much red tape eventually lead to corruption.Systems should merge or devise other ways.

2. Power concentration. Centralised power can turn into a nightmare. Decentralisation of power is must in order to curb the corruption. Example: IAS, IPS. Too much power is given to IAS and IPS is a one of the cause of corruption.

3. Too much stringent laws can also prevents bureaucrats to make big decisions. Even with current laws and scrutiny, bureaucrats are hesitant to make decisions.(Businesses complain about it numerous times). After JanLokpal implementation, it might be more hard for them to make decisions.

4. No checks on JanLokpal. What if JanLokpal get corrupt. Are we going to implement one more lokpal.

In my opinion, the real cause of corruption is bad governance. Bad governance creates loopholes into the system. E.g Red Tape, less transparent system etc. Public sector in India has not gone though much of the reforms. Reforms are required in every sector in order to curb the corruption. Prevention is better than cure. Having said that, I am very thankful to Team Anna for bringing awareness among people about corruption. Team Anna's solution, JanLokpal is a step in the right direction with good intention. But every solution is subject to some analysis which is required before implementing. JanLokpal cannot be an exception. Before implementing such a big solution it is better to discuss it. And be aware of pros and cons.
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Infringing upon Diggy's Copyright about Discovering RSS/BJP Plans, I here by put forth Congress Plans:

PlanA: Malign Team Anna and the Andolan: RESULT: FAILED.

Plan B: Delay Lokpal Bill by referring it to various Committees, Deliberately Leave large number loopholes in Govt draft, expect that even if there are objections raised and accepted, the bill will still be weak: RESULT: FAILED.

Plan C: Use lokpal bill as a potential goldmine: bring minority, backward reservations etc; be vague about actual powers given to Lokpal: Keep calling it strong; Let Rahul Baba read a written speech: Introduce "Constitutional" smokescreen: RESULT: FAILED.

PlanD: If compelled and failed till PLAN C, introduce an inherently weak and constitutionally challenged (quota etc, Lokayukta provision mischief) bill. Pass it in Loksabha/RS, deliberately ensure that the "Constitutional" Part does not go through: Go to Polls saying that in 60 Yrs of Independent India, we are the only courageous, who passed the bill; but, it remains weak as opposition did not allow "Constitutional" Status. Let Rahul Baba read a couple of more written speeches about how opposition played partisan politics blah blah: RESULT: FAILED.

PlanE (Damage Control and Germination of Ignorance in masses): PLAN Status: Currently Running : Blame BJP, invent renewed list of "Connections" between team Anna and BJP. take refuse under procedural precedence of not being able to extend sessions etc etc. make noises that we will bring a String Lokpal. BJP sabotaged it etc etc. Present Lokayukta issue in way to project that all but congress ganged up to ensure non -enactment of Lokayukta. Plant 'seeds' in majority of social and traditional media who will keep feeding ambiguous details and will be taking refuge under technicalities to invent an opposition hand in this fiasco.

I predict that now onwards, all discussions by govt seeds will revolve around PlanE. The sole action plan of PLAN E is to

1. Keep delaying any serious discussion on jan Lokpal, its merits and demerits etc etc.
2. Carryout as much damage control as possible.
3. Keep intact: Gandhi Privar's mystic by keeping them in oblivion during these turbulent waters.




PS: Baaki, Jakhar Sir: indeed a great effort by you on last 2-3 posts (especially). You did a marvelous job of collating all the points. Brilliantly written piece.
 
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