Why could there be no other Bal Thackrey?

[rinkusheoran]

Or vice versa-
"When a power will fail, a system will arise"?

I believe the way it is written not vice versa.Could you Please elaborate what do you understand by system and power here and context of this thread so that i can share my views on that.

 

[rinkusheoran]

I am not sure why do you pretend to know me better than myself? Let me be the judge of myself, truce?

Also, I think you will help both, the discussion and JL by responding to the topic instead of questioning my definitions and my belief because you hardly know me or my belief. Your last few posts have been away from the topic and more focused on me, while I enjoy getting so much attention but I doubt others do so. If you wish to discuss my ideology on personal level then you are more than welcome to write to me personally, you already have my e mail ID.
Cheers

Only thing that i see here is 'I disagree to agree with your thoughts'.I dont have any fights with you or your ideology.If you insist that and if that is way you are looking at it, i'm ready to have permanent peace rather than truce.

I'm not claiming to know you at all and again that is your perception.I have been saying this and i'm reiterating ,you take things only the way you want them rather than taking them the way they are written or said. It could be because of one's own level of understanding things so my apologies on that if you felt bad

One can easily identify person's ideology/thinking with his writing, it is not rocket science.When you said i have criticized greater leaders( leader as per you) that was your thinking on leaders or what you believe leaders are.Insan k murshid(Leader) se uski gati(progess) ka pta chalta hai so i think that itself tell something about person. I and i think whole JL as well know that you enjoy getting/taking attention and that is obvious with your write ups and i know your loving it so good luck on that.

N thanks for allowing me to write to you personally on email and i even have your contact number as well. if needed i ll contact you either way.

Coming back on the thread, who do you think responsible for thakreys and Bhinderwala? they themselves or is it the system?

 

[vvk1987]

[h=5]ल्यो भाई यो भी पढ़ ल्यो ठाकरे की शान मैं

Thackeray and His Legacy
The call of Sunday bandh given by Shiv Sainiks in Mumbai after Bal Thackeray’s death was questioned by a girl in her fb post and another girl liked it. Both were arrested for “promoting enmity between classes” by Mumbai police. The bandh is a mark of protest for grievance redressal. What was Shiv Sainik’s grievance over Thackeray’s death? None contributed to it. Thackeray died a natural death at a ripe old age of 86. Every one has to meet one’s end at some stage.
The blind glorification of Thackeray by all and sundry, gun salute and all that, is amazing. Thackeray had acerbic tongue and acidic pen and used them skillfully to arouse primordial passion of regional identity of “Marathi Manush” blaming minorities, migrants-poor Biharis and UP bhaias etc- for all the ills of Maharashra citizens , forgetting that it is the labouring people of Maharashtra and other states on whose back the corrupt politicians and bureaucrats fill their coffers and corporate houses build their empires. In the process he smashed trade unions and other social organizations fighting for the just causes .
Thackeray’s funeral attracted mammoth crowd. Hitler attracted much larger crowds(Thackeray was a great admirer of Hitler). Does it mean hat Hitler was right? The question of right and wrong, just and unjust, virtue and vice, good and evil cannot be answered by majority-minority equation. If whole of the mankind were arrayed against one Socrates, one Christ, one Buddha and one Gandhi; one Rousseau, one Marx, one Bhagat Singh and one Che Guevera; or one Galileo, one Darwin, one Newton or one Einstein, the multitude would be in the wrong.
Thackeray’s legacy is divisive, destructive and inimical to the national interest and his theory of the sons of the soil pernicious. If mankind has to survive meaningfully in the present nuclear world dominated by the corporate greed and naked exploitation of man by man, all the barriers of caste, community, race, ethnicity, territory etc. must be dismantled by stressing the basic and primary identity of homo sapiens- the mankind tied by the bond of universal brotherhood.
As correctly stated by a Mumbai girl in her fb post,:”Mumai shut down due to fear, not respect.” It is the known bullying tactics and strong arm methods of Shiv Sainkiks which evoked all the tributes for the departed soul of Thackeray. Let his soul rest in peace and sanity prevail on his frenzied followers.
Press Council of India Chairman, Justice Markandey Katju’ s stance of not paying tribute to Thacheray is laudable. He has rightly slammed the Maharashtra Chief Minister Prithviraj Chauhan for the arrest tow girls. I cast my humble vote in favour of Justice Katju and the two brave girls of Mumbai. I salute them
The great Italian thinker Gramsci has rightly stated that fascism is the excrement of a dysfunctional polity; its consequence and not its cause. The atrocious act of mugging even the social media by arresting some one by expressing one’s opinion while our Constitution guarantees freedom of expression is symptomatic of the growing cancer of fascism. This is the gravest threat to the Indian democracy today.[/h]

 

[annch]

It is exactly the same context and understanding of "power" and "system" as your post that I quoted. But then system driven governance and development is a utopian thought.

I believe the way it is written not vice versa.Could you Please elaborate what do you understand by system and power here and context of this thread so that i can share my views on that.

 

[vpannu]

Or vice versa-
"When a power will fail, a system will arise"?

How so? Failure in democracies (i.e. a system) has given birth to many powers. Gaddaffi in Libya, Mubarak in Egypt, Musharraf in Pak, Frank Bainimarama in Fiji are to name a few. Be it Veerappan or Dawood, they all are products of a failed system.

 

[annch]

When power (i.e.Thackrey, Gandhi, etc, etc) erodes a system (i.e. democracy/governance), isn't it a check on how robust a system is? If power persists, system breaks down further, and if power diminishes, the system is improved and strengthened.

How so? Failure in democracies (i.e. a system) has given birth to many powers. Gaddaffi in Libya, Mubarak in Egypt, Musharraf in Pak, Frank Bainimarama in Fiji are to name a few. Be it Veerappan or Dawood, they all are products of a failed system.

 

[annch]

Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't RTI part of a system (i.e.democracy) and not power?

How so? Failure in democracies (i.e. a system) has given birth to many powers. Gaddaffi in Libya, Mubarak in Egypt, Musharraf in Pak, Frank Bainimarama in Fiji are to name a few. Be it Veerappan or Dawood, they all are products of a failed system.

 

[vpannu]

Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't RTI part of a system (i.e.democracy) and not power?

Although off-topic to comment but my understanding is : It is indeed part of the system and a power vested in common man. Any Tom, Dick and Harry can use it but one must not abuse it.

 

[rinkusheoran]

When power (i.e.Thackrey, Gandhi, etc, etc) erodes a system (i.e. democracy/governance), isn't it a check on how robust a system is? If a system is improved and strengthened, power would vane. When you flip this- if a system breaks down, power would get stronger.

What you are saying is correct but other way round.Thackrey/Gandhi/Bhinderwala were not made in a day and they were not power from day1. if they were force to reckon with it was due to the failed/flawed system( system include our constitution, people runnig the regime) not other way round


Vo dialog yaad hai sarkar 1 ka , jab abhishek katrina se kehta hai log mere papa se maddat mangane aate hai jab unhe sarkar se maddat nhi milti
Katrina says- iska matlab tumhare papa ek parallel govt hain
Abhishek- agar tumhe yahi lagta hai to yahi sahi


For example, Raj thakrey in today's system is making use of failed system. When he asking all the shopkeeper to write names of shops in Marathi( yes this is law in maharastra under some shop act) or asking people to register themselves with state police( again that is as per law in interstate migration act). he is not doing anything wrong. he is just using the current laws which govt should have implemented. Why govt needs someone like raj Thakrey to tell that to people?

 

[annch]

It is not a common man who influences/misuses a system. It is a man with "power" who can do so. Kejriwal and all are strengthening a system, and in your own words, Raj Thackrey is using the failed system.

What you are saying is correct but other way round.Thackrey/Gandhi/Bhinderwala were not made in a day and they were not power from day1. if they were force to reckon with it was due to the failed/flawed system( system include our constitution, people runnig the regime) not other way round


Vo dialog yaad hai sarkar 1 ka , jab abhishek katrina se kehta hai log mere papa se maddat mangane aate hai jab unhe sarkar se maddat nhi milti
Katrina says- iska matlab tumhare papa ek parallel govt hain
Abhishek- agar tumhe yahi lagta hai to yahi sahi


For example, Raj thakrey in today's system is making use of failed system. When he asking all the shopkeeper to write names of shops in Marathi( yes this is law in maharastra under some shop act) or asking people to register themselves with state police( again that is as per law in interstate migration act). he is not doing anything wrong. he is just using the current laws which govt should have implemented. Why govt needs someone like raj Thakrey to tell that to people?

 

[swaich]

Mr Swaich
Let us not involve naxalism in this because again that is due to lack good of governance otherwise why people in Delhi or Haryana( it is better than where we have naxalism) have not taken guns ??? lets leave this for other thread or time

I personally hate the identity politics or politics of appeasement or politics of minority or politics of Aam Admi( ek baar Jayant Chaudhary ne parliament mein pucha tha ki Sab kuch Aam Admi k liye hai iska matlab Koi to KHAS hai, Kon hai vo KHAS aadmi??) No one is decreasing the identity politics that was done by Bhinderwala or Thackrey.You are an intellectual person so Answer me one thing, Who allowed Raj Thackeray to be person he is today, is it him or the system??? If it is only individual why we had only 1 Bhinderwala or thakrey? i can bet that we have lacs of people who want to be like them if it boils down completely to individuals.

Bit off topic,For Khaps i keep hearing the govt calling them unconstitutional and saying no body will be spared but why they become silent when one person( Raj Thakrey in this case) or his follower are allowed to go free hand and do vandalism in one of the biggest cosmopolitan city in india?

Rinku bhai, you probably didnt get the gist of my previous post. Let me repeat, its undeniable that system, environment, society have a role in producing a Bal Thakre or a Bhindrawala. But, if not more, these people are as much a product of a system as their own convictions. If only the system were to be blamed we would have had a hundred Thakres. But it was his own beliefs along with a fertile ground for his actions that led to his rise. And personally, I believe its more the person and less the system that leads to extremists like Thakre and Bhindrawala.

And Naxalis is an apt mention here. You cant compare lack of governance in Delhi with Dantewada. The latter practically has no governance! Anyways, thats off topic.

And on Raj Thakre, I agree the Congress govt. probably had a motive in not reigning him in as it weakened the Shiv Sena.

 

[swaich]

Mr. Sheoran,

You are right, they were the product of system which facilitates men to emerge as sole votaries of certain ideology or political idiom and enjoy the support of system. Therefore So long as Hero worshiping is there, none can blame but the system for emergence of 'heroes'.

thanks

Rajpal ji, hero worship has always been a part of civilizations. Nothing new.But when someone with a divisive ideology like a Thakre and Bhindrawala comes along, we cant blame the system alone. The people who worshipped them along with the heroes have to take a majority of the blame. Blaming the system alone feels like we are absolving the extremists of any responsibilities of their actions. So tomorrow if some Delhiite, fed up with corruption, shoots down Sheila Dikshit, we cant simply say - "Lets not punish him because he was a product of a corrupt system." One cant escape responsibility for their own actions by simply blaming the system.

 

[swaich]

What you are saying is correct but other way round.Thackrey/Gandhi/Bhinderwala were not made in a day and they were not power from day1. if they were force to reckon with it was due to the failed/flawed system( system include our constitution, people runnig the regime) not other way round


Vo dialog yaad hai sarkar 1 ka , jab abhishek katrina se kehta hai log mere papa se maddat mangane aate hai jab unhe sarkar se maddat nhi milti
Katrina says- iska matlab tumhare papa ek parallel govt hain
Abhishek- agar tumhe yahi lagta hai to yahi sahi


For example, Raj thakrey in today's system is making use of failed system. When he asking all the shopkeeper to write names of shops in Marathi( yes this is law in maharastra under some shop act) or asking people to register themselves with state police( again that is as per law in interstate migration act). he is not doing anything wrong. he is just using the current laws which govt should have implemented. Why govt needs someone like raj Thakrey to tell that to people?

Rinku Ji, Raj Thakre had no right to enforce the law, if there was one. Nor did he certainly just 'ask' people to register themselves, if there is such a law (which I doubt). I think we are losing sight of the violence unleashed by MNS to enforce their own views.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Friend,

No doubt Hero worship is an ancient tradition but Hero worship and 'hero' making are two different things. When someone is raised as 'hero' to meet the partisan ends, the end always is disastrous for which the 'system' that creates such 'heroes' is held equally at fault alongwith the 'hero'. Quoting of futuristic example should be desisted please.
I close my participation in this discussion with posting of this bit of information that awakening of national feelings, humanism and adherence to moral ethos of multiculturism are the panacea to several ills dogging our national life today.

Thanks

 

[rinkusheoran]

Rinku bhai, you probably didnt get the gist of my previous post. Let me repeat, its undeniable that system, environment, society have a role in producing a Bal Thakre or a Bhindrawala. But, if not more, these people are as much a product of a system as their own convictions. If only the system were to be blamed we would have had a hundred Thakres. But it was his own beliefs along with a fertile ground for his actions that led to his rise. And personally, I believe its more the person and less the system that leads to extremists like Thakre and Bhindrawala.

And Naxalis is an apt mention here. You cant compare lack of governance in Delhi with Dantewada. The latter practically has no governance! Anyways, thats off topic.

And on Raj Thakre, I agree the Congress govt. probably had a motive in not reigning him in as it weakened the Shiv Sena.

Rinku Ji, Raj Thakre had no right to enforce the law, if there was one. Nor did he certainly just 'ask' people to register themselves, if there is such a law (which I doubt). I think we are losing sight of the violence unleashed by MNS to enforce their own views.

First of all, please address me just Rinku and it will be highly appreciated. thanks in advance for this

Swaich, i and everyone knows that he has no right to enforce law but he is doing it with aplomb and same was done by his uncle but if you or i will do the same thing we will be behind bars but why not him??Yes,If system was total failure we will hundreds or thousands of Thackerays and bhinderwalas but Why we dont have it??It is the system/regime who allows only 1-2 to benefit themselves.I know that it is individual who is responsible but who should be held accountable for that? Is It individual or system, i personally believe system should be held more accountable for this.

There is law for inter state migration and to remove your doubts you can visit THE INTER-STATE MIGRANT WORKMEN (REGULATION OF EMPLOYMENT AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE) ACT, 1979. this is link http://hrylabour.gov.in/docs/labourActpdfdocs/Inter_State_Migrant_Act.pdf

 

[rinkusheoran]

It is not a common man who influences/misuses a system. It is a man with "power" who can do so. Kejriwal and all are strengthening a system, and in your own words, Raj Thackrey is using the failed system.

Annji:-As far as i know and please correct me if i'm wrong, be it Thackreys or Bhinderwala never had any Judicial, Executive or Legislative powers that exist in India but if they still have it we need to appreciate them for there ability. they were above all these three even without being part of it as per you.Kejriwal once held executive power but not anymore.May sound bit off topic but Kejriwal is not able or not allowed to play with the system the way Raj is playing( Regime/system benefit from his vandalism in voting) because Kejriwal is not being allowed when he is naming someone from Congress(Vadra-given clean chit in 3 days) but look at what he has done to Gadkari in the same system.

Raj thakrey was born in 1968 which makes him 44years old. I doubt whether people knew(outside Maharashtra) him 10 years ago??He has used a failed/flawed system to get powers that you are talking so i still believe when "system fails, power arises" not other way round.

 

[jaisingh318]

Rajpal ji, hero worship has always been a part of civilizations. Nothing new.But when someone with a divisive ideology like a Thakre and Bhindrawala comes along, we cant blame the system alone. The people who worshipped them along with the heroes have to take a majority of the blame. Blaming the system alone feels like we are absolving the extremists of any responsibilities of their actions. So tomorrow if some Delhiite, fed up with corruption, shoots down Sheila Dikshit, we cant simply say - "Lets not punish him because he was a product of a corrupt system." One cant escape responsibility for their own actions by simply blaming the system.

power factor..............jab ek nehru ,advani,sushma,sibbal,gujral,.......................nakli rajniti or nakli seystem jahan asli haqdarro ko dabaya jata h.