Why I Donot Hate Islam!!

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Thanks!!

Very nice dear members!

I am pleased to see relatively more meaningful posts this time. Before we proceed let me sum up your opinion (as to where the solution lies to the problem) with a view to save time of the new entrants. You may add to your views anytime you want.

1. Col Malik: :Mass education
2. Atul Jhajhria : Confrontation
3. Rahul nadar : Muslims to reform themselves
4.Vikas Rathee : Not opitimistic about any solution even with education

(E&OE)

I would like to take liberty to clarify Col Malik’s suggestion (#10 in his post). I think he means propogation of education on the mass scale. Shri Vikas Rathee has correctly pointed out in some of his posts that many of the nuisance creators are the educated ones. Frankly speaking, I also agree. I had expressed my feeling in my first post in this thread that the mullahs and the secessionists are exploiting the sentiments of their fraternity. But I also believe that they are able to exploit them only because the masses are not educated and ,thus, do not ubderstand their designs. They simply lack free thinking. A clear evidence to this, as Col Malik very subtly pointed out, is that in the Islamic countries the ratio of religious fundamentalism is inversely proportional to rate of literacy. A food for thought , indeed! With the propogation of education on mass scale they (the masses) will be relatively less vulnerable to the negative propoganda of these mullaha and secessionists for hatred and so called jehad. I would request Rathee Sahab to reconsider Col Malik’s suggestion.

At this stage let me request the learned members to kindly broaden the perspective a little bit to include the political and administrative measures (alongwith the social to which we are so far) as the problem needs to be tackled from all fronts. We may consider about the following. Please try to be realistic. The suggestions should be implementable with in the scope of basic structure of the Constitution.

i) UNIFORM CIVIL CODE
ii) UNIFORM EDUCATION CODE
iii) CURRICULUM OF RELIGIOUS/MORAL EDUCATION IN ALL INDIAN SCHOOLS ON THE LINES THAT IN ARMED FORCES
iv) STRICT SCRUTINY OF FUNDING OF ALL RELIGIOUS/CHARITABLE INSTITUTES
v) STRENGTHENING OF INTERNAL SECURITY AGENCIES

On our part I think we should go by what our great leader Chaudhary Chhotu Ram taught us and I quote
“ Khudi ko kar buland itna ke har tadvir se pahle khuda bande se puchhe ke bol teri raza hai kya”

In other words we have to raise ourselves high enough to be pulled back by any one. We have to learn lessons of healthy cooperation at all levels starting from the family through the village and community level. We also have to understand the designs of our political leaders and get not swayed by the castist forces alone. All factors shold be well considered before we commit our support to any one. Only quality education (not just literacy) can make it happen. Learned members may give more suggestions.


Please devote a little more of your time and post your inputs. I hope we will be able to frame our opinion by 2nd of April.

Thanks again and best of regards!!!
 
You are Right...

Dear All,

Mass education of all communities irrespective of religion, status and area, not only education to learn the ‘Three Rs’ but also about each other’s culture, religion, festivals and traditions.

An example of Army is a must. We have ‘Sarv Dharma Sthals’ in most cantonments under one roof. No questions asked, no answers given. Religion is considered a very personal thing. We don’t even allow display of religious posters in the barracks. Yes, you would find posters of all actresses!!!

Just to prove a point that how ‘Country & ‘Izzat of the Paltan’ is more important for a soldier than ‘Just Religion’, I will have to give an example of my regiment. The most potent weapon we have is the MMG, sorry not Medium Machine Gun but Mandir, Masjid & Gurudwara and every Sunday morning we have a parade called MMG Parade. Fauj mein every activity is a parade. The troops are in their respective religious places. It is normal to find Hindus in Masjid & Gurudwara, Muslims in Gurudwara & Mandir and Sikhs in Masjid & Mandir (though we don’t have Sikhs in large numbers). All officers, their families (if we are in a family station) & Subedar Major along with other key Subedars visit all the three religious places in a random order. We partake ‘Prasad’ in all three, the 'Kadha Prasad' of Gurudwara being the tastiest (The Giani of my Paltan had a girl friend in Baramulla, I knew it and he knew that I knew it. So? I got a real big chunk of the 'Prasad' every Sunday).

The real fun is when there is a festival. Say we are celebrating Diwali. The main function is in the Mandir and it is very normal to see Muslims & Sikhs running around to see that everything is in order. The main prayers or 'Aarti’ starts when the CO Saheb reaches the venue. No one is surprised when you find the Maulvi standing at the place where the Pandit normally stands. The Maulvi would give a small speech as to the significance of Diwali, why it is celebrated, what we can learn from the righteous life of Shri Ram (Yes he says Shri Ram) and then prays. He does not sing Bhajans but prays for the well being of the Paltan, Regiment & The Country. We all say Aameen. Then the Aarti is conducted by the Pandit Ji. The same sort of thing happens during ID or Gurparb. I have seen it happening for 21 years and have had no problem. Whenever we have troops visiting from the friendly foreign countries, they are obviously shocked at the simplicity of the whole thing and it takes a lot of time for it to sink in their systems. And this is the reason why the Indian Soldier fights for the 'Izzat of the Paltan', immaterial whether he is a Hindu, Sikh, Muslim or Christian.

An Institute of National Integration at Pune, where all the Religious Teachers of the Army are trained together, is the mother institution that has done a lot of yeoman service for the Armed Forces. There is now standardisation of ‘Religious Teachings’ and it has helped the Armed Forces in a big way.

May be we need an institute of this kind at national level, state level, district level and Taluka/Tehsil level. Can we imagine the kind of energies that would be released should we stop fighting in the name of religion? We would not only ensure progress for our own nation but also set an example for the entire world. These are not utopian dreams but something that wouldn't take much to do.

Regards,

JS Malik
 
1]UNIFORM CIVIL CODE: Jab tak vote bank ki rajniti chalegi aur hamare neta Dess hitt nahi sochna shuru kreinge...ye ek distant dream hei [This will be an ideal thing to happen though]
2]Uniform Education Code: Same as above....BHIN KI BHIN
3]CURRICULUM THING: Is possible and will be a nice step in right direction but i see some reservation from one section of the society.However it is achievable and will go a long way in uniting people and soothing the hurts.
4]Funding and scrutiny: Urgently required and should be made mendatory by a law of the land. Sooner the better.
5] Internal security aspect: By in far this is the most difficult of all the points mentioned.It is a challenge and unless each citizen is aware of his/her duties and behaves in a responcible manner,leaving it to police or Army will serve no purpose,particularly when we have fragile borders all around and rogue states not able to handle their internal affairs.Task becomes more daunting due to high level of corruption in public life where an IMAAN can be purched in exchange of few notes. It is a tedious task and has a tall order.


POINTS made by Ramphal bhai have a great merit and is a grim pointer to the going ons. Quick fix solutions won't work...we need an overhauling as things are beyond economical and moral repairs.
 
jagmohan said:
An Institute of National Integration at Pune, where all the Religious Teachers of the Army are trained together, is the mother institution that has done a lot of yeoman service for the Armed Forces. There is now standardisation of ‘Religious Teachings’ and it has helped the Armed Forces in a big way.

May be we need an institute of this kind at national level, state level, district level and Taluka/Tehsil level. Can we imagine the kind of energies that would be released should we stop fighting in the name of religion? We would not only ensure progress for our own nation but also set an example for the entire world. These are not utopian dreams but something that wouldn't take much to do.

Thanks a lot Col Malik for vivid explanation and your views!

Let me take this opprtunity to remind the learned members to resist the tempetation to contest each other's point(s). Kindly contain yourself to make home your point(s) only.

Best of regards!
 
deswal said:
Almost all of the 24 participants in this discussion have expressed their opinion on this issue whether hate for hate is the proper solution for the spirit of hatred that some Muslims have towards the other sects including Hindus for different reasons. Before we step on the next part as to if not hatred, how should this whole issue be handled I would like to sum up the stands taken so far by the worthy members. Different members have different reasons in support of the stand taken by them. So reasons need not be spelt out again. A list is given below of all those participated. Stand taken by a member has been indicated his/her name. Scope for errors & ommisions is not ruled out. So members may kindly go through and point out any deviation or mistake that may have crept in while straightening the loose ends of the thread. I will also request members not to post any comments now in support of how they stand. Only the wrong entries need to be pointed out. You may also simply say “ Yes, my stand has been correctly/incorrectly interpreted”. That will be enough, I think. If someone has not so far indicated his/her stand, he/she may do so anytime:

Here goes the list:

Sr.No Name of the Member Is Hate for Hate good for us?
(Shri/Smt/Kumari) or
Should we also Hate?

1. Rajendra Kumar Kalkhande No
2. Ravi Inder Chaudhary No
3. Ram Phal Deswal No
4. Ritu Dahiya No
5. Jit Takhar No
6. Dev Dahiya No
7. Vijay Singh No
8. Sampuran Singh No
9. Sandeep Rathee No
10. Sitaram Jakhar No
11. Amit Sansanwal No
12. Abhimanyu No
13. Pradeep Sangwan No
14. Poonam No
15. Pinks No
16. Jagmohan Singh Malik No
17. Kiran Takhar No
18. Vikas Chaudhary No

19. Vikas Rathee Yes
20. Rupendra Sheoran Yes
21. Atul Jhajharia Yes
22. Chora Jat Ka Yes
23. Sunita Hooda Undecided
24. Vinod Sangwan No


HAte for Hate is Not good, But
Just like Bhagat singh said - To make the deaf hear, you need a loud explosion.
I also believe it
 
devdahiya said:
Quick fix solutions won't work...we need an overhauling as things are beyond economical and moral repairs.

Sorry Sir,

Our messages crossed each other!

Bitter truth "Quick solutions ........beyond economical and moral repairs".

Wonderul!!
 
Last edited:
Good direction

Thankyou Ram Phal bhai for keeping the thread on track.

Historically the redical and terrorist tendencies of Islam have been under check under Communism. Or as Colonel Malik had pointed out, in the Indian Army, where Army ethos have been made superior to Islamic theology through drills and practices............ Can that be replicated across India ? And at global level as well ?

Education may be a half-solution. Most of the international islamic terrorists are not uneducated people. Most of the clerics who have been eating British/American rotis and preaching hatred against non-muslims in these very countries, are not 'angootha chhap'. Education opens up horizons.. But whether it can prevent a muslim from getting brainwashed & turning into a terrorist is a VERY DEBATABLE POINT.

Human beings have same characteristics all over the world. But we have also divided ourselves into different groups based on colour, creed, language, religion, profession etc.. Take any broad group that has global and historical identity. No group except muslims indulge in widespread terrorism purely based on religion or teach hatred about other religions. It is not that only Pakistanis do it. The teachings are exactly the same across the world, in Nigeria, Sudan, USA, Indonasia, Palestine, Iran, Europe, South Africa, Trinaidad, Kashmir, Kerala , Assam ..........

On the other hand such activities by any other group are purely local, only based on local conditions. For example, LTTE indulges in suicide bombings. But not everywhere in the world. And certainly not every non-Tamil that they see.

What is the root cause that makes muslims act in this manner, but not the other religions ?? That is the Isl;amic teachings. And they need to be changed so as to be humanistic, rather than Islamic. This is not for people like us to discuss or do.

Here I would agree with Ravi Chaudhary that you discuss on Muslims' forums.
 
Dear members,we have no right to question the creation of God.He made each humanbeing special.He never gave birth to any one on ethnic lines.He made a body and delivered it here, on this planet........It is we who have narrowed our vision and made brackets of religion...and if we did it....we must share the repurcussions too.The only way to approach a conflict is Harmony....and harmony comes with an attitude of wonderment and open-mindedness.In every moment in our lives why can't we see in totality and not in a partial way. By looking at things with appreciation we can surely avoid and resolve conflicts but quesion is...........What for? And that is the problem?We want to remain in a state of uncertainity and are ready to be bitched by a handfuls scorn/hate distributors.We ought to wake up.....and sooner the better.
 
devdahiya said:
Dear members,we have no right to question the creation of God.He made each humanbeing special.He never gave birth to any one on ethnic lines.He made a body and delivered it here, on this planet........It is we who have narrowed our vision and made brackets of religion...and if we did it....

Your cocept of God is false!

God did not created men!

Men created God!

God is on our mercy!
 
Thats why some people say little knowledge is worse than ignorance. Atul, Not that you are wrong (you might be right I don't know) but the way you say it sounds ridiculous. What is truth? God created man? man created God or we don't anything about the matter? As per your claim some might say its just chemical reaction in your brains that make you say whatever you say, then every statement is as meaningless as other if tried to be interpreted in language of chemistry... when we impose our perceptions on things we make them little less than what they are, driven by piety, skeptism or intellect, no matter what, the main point is "driven by something"... whatever, where did you gain this wisdom?... you are saying as if its outcome of some scientific experiment that you did and it has been proved beyond any doubt as absolute truth... I know how you going to defend, enough pages has been smeared by philosopher on this issue but ideas are ideas not truths... you must have heard that newest converts are most eager to prove themselves, I think you are new convert to atheism... anyway, I should not digress...

Sorry, guys don't read it. Plz proceed with relevent discussion (which is pointless in my opinion becuz these issues should be discussed only with muslims, you can't decide for them here)...

good luck

Vinod


atul.jhajhria said:
Your cocept of God is false!

God did not created men!

Men created God!

God is on our mercy!
 
vinodks said:
Thats why some people say little knowledge is worse than ignorance. Atul, Not that you are wrong (you might be right I don't know) but the way you say it sounds ridiculous. What is truth? God created man? man created God or we don't anything about the matter? As per your claim some might say its just chemical reaction in your brains that make you say whatever you say, then every statement is as meaningless as other if tried to be interpreted in language of chemistry... when we impose our perceptions on things we make them little less than what they are, driven by piety, skeptism or intellect, no matter what, the main point is "driven by something"... whatever, where did you gain this wisdom?... you are saying as if its outcome of some scientific experiment that you did and it has been proved beyond any doubt as absolute truth... I know how you going to defend, enough pages has been smeared by philosopher on this issue but ideas are ideas not truths... you must have heard that newest converts are most eager to prove themselves, I think you are new convert to atheism... anyway, I should not digress...

Sorry, guys don't read it. Plz proceed with relevent discussion (which is pointless in my opinion becuz these issues should be discussed only with muslims, you can't decide for them here)...

good luck

Vinod

Vinod its the truth. I had same view as yours not long ago.
Let me explain you the scientific explanation, and no its not hypothesis or some fairytale.

The life started due to lightening! The various element like carbon, oxygen and some others i dont remember exactly. The lightening created a life out of lifeless elements.

Its a kind of cell we use in torch! Its difficult to percieve and i even cant percieve it now. But its the truth.

There was no God involved. The lightening has ability to infuse life with conducive environment. Due to lightening the various element combined to form amino acid, the building block of life!

You can search it on how life started!!

I hope this help. I dont intend to made up stories. :)
 
Only For Atul Jhajharia

THIS IS ONLY FOR ATUL!!! OTHERS MAY PLEASE IGNORE!!

Dear Atul,

Whether God is there or not and if yes, in what form is a centuries old question. The answer lies more in faith than in reasoning. You admitted that once you believed as many of us do now. You are not going to be hurt if others believe in Him. On the other hand if you speak the way about Him in derogatory terms feelings of those who have faith in Him are going to be hurt. Do you think you have got the rights to hurt others' feelings. If yes, please tell me I have a befitting reply. If not please refrain from such declarations at public forms especially where the majorty are theists. There are a couple of websites where people like you share their views. You may visit them. If you do not have the addresses I may tell you.

Faith is a purely personal matter. Those who believe in Him and make references to Him are in majority and they can safely do so. Those who do not believe, they have their right not to believe. But when they read any reference to God they should never contradict the very concept of God unless the discussion is on the concept itself.

I think you will understand. If not, Contact me at

deswalrp@yahoo.com
 
Wind Up!!!

This issue appears to have had more than its due attention. I, therefore, wish to wind up the discussion today with full text of two articles by Shri K.P.S.Gill on the subject 'terrorism':


Give Voice To Moderate Islam


At a time of great religious polarization and violence that is sweeping across the world, and a persistent campaign of terror in the name of extremist political ‘Islamism’, while there is no room for complacency, it is useful to note that the ideology of extremist Islam is, in fact, being defeated in many places, and this is happening precisely because it is a weak and erroneous idea. It prevails only where the enveloping context is oppressive and does not allow questioning and criticism in an open discourse. In structurally free societies, it is only where such discourse has been suppressed by terrorism that, once again, extremist Islam begins to appear to have prevailed. It is important to remind ourselves, however, that appearances are not reality, that compliance under extreme duress does not mean that an idea has been embraced. That is why the terrorists in Jammu & Kashmir (J&K) have to kill so many of their own ‘Muslim brothers and sisters’, whose ‘rights’ they claim to be fighting to protect – nearly 90 per cent of all civilian fatalities inflicted by the terrorists in the State are Muslims. This is consistent with what had happened in Punjab as well, where the population was relatively more evenly distributed between Hindus and Sikhs – 65 per cent of the civilian victims of the ‘Khalistani’ terrorists were themselves Sikhs. Unsurprisingly, today, with the threat of terror gone, the ideology of Khalistan finds no advocates among the Sikhs in India, though a handful of non-resident Indians continue to rant about the ‘oppression of Sikhs’ in ‘Hindu India’. The fact is, intolerant belief systems constantly find it necessary to impose censorship through violence, because they would simply shrivel up and die under the sunlight of an open discourse.
It is in India that extremist Islam has met with its most resounding defeat, despite an enormous and sustained campaign of terrorism, vast financial resources from a wide range of state sponsors, and continuous support and encouragement from Pakistan. It is interesting that, in the Pakistan sponsored sub-conventional war in J&K, Pakistan has succeeded in sending in jehadis from more than 18 different countries to fight and die in the State, but they have failed entirely in getting Indian Muslims from other parts of the country involved in what they have sought to project as a jehad to protect Muslims against the ‘unbelievers’.
India’s success in contesting the movements of extremist Islam is based largely on the tolerant, pluralistic Islam that has been embraced by the overwhelming majority of Muslims here, and the relationship of stable accommodation with other Faiths that Islam has entered into within the context of a democratic, open and secular constitutional polity.
Nevertheless, it is necessary to note that moderate Islam is, today, under siege in India – and the threat comes from more than one direction. The most significant threat, of course, is of terrorism itself. The moderates of the Faith cannot directly confront the extremists once the latter begin to push their ideas through campaigns of terrorism. The moderate voice is often stifled with the first shot of the extremists’ gun. While moderates can be expected to raise their voices against extremism, and have often done so, this is possible only under conditions where the risks are manageable. It is, consequently, necessary for both state and society to protect moderate Islam in India today, just as extraordinary measures were adopted to protect the voice of moderation in Punjab at the height of the terror in that State.
The resource base of the moderates, moreover, is relatively limited, as compared to the vast and unconditional resources the extremists are able to secure from their foreign sponsors. The result is the increasing orbit of subversive activities and well-funded campaigns for the mobilization of support for the extremist cause, and the relative absence of a coherent moderate response. In this, the role of the media also tends to be negative – though largely inadvertently so – since its primary focus is on ‘news’ and on the sensational it yields far more column space and airtime to covering the activities of extremists than it could ever credibly commit to airing the message of the moderates. This is natural and cannot be expected to change, but it places moderates at a distinctive disadvantage, even as it assures a steady supply of the ‘oxygen of publicity’ that keeps the extremists alive.
Another and more insidious danger comes from the Indian state itself, as it seeks progressively to engage Islamist extremists and their state sponsors in negotiations. This reflects a grave miscalculation on at least two counts: first, the extremist ideology is not amenable to reasonable accommodation; second, and more significantly, when the state and its agencies engage the extremists in a dialogue and increasingly define their policies in terms of their assessments of extremist reaction and response, they inevitably marginalize the moderates. Today, moderate Islam has no voice in world opinion precisely because the world is eager only to engage with those who are killing in the name of Islam. If Islamist extremism is to be defeated, the world and the Indian state must not only speak to the moderates, and to the moderates alone, but they must also protect and empower them.
Regrettably, India’s political leadership is progressively losing its moorings on the communal question. Inviting ‘Muslim intellectuals’ to dinner and iftar parties appears to exhaust the range of political initiatives in this direction today, across the entire ideological spectrum. This can hardly help break through the ideological logjam, because these ‘intellectuals’ are themselves confounded by what is happening. Worse, the ‘secular’ lobby tends to be enormously patronizing, and has no real ingress into, and little understanding of, Muslim culture, which has largely been reduced to a politically correct parody of itself in their imaginings. This is no less than offensive to the Muslims, just as similar and reductionist stereotypes were offensive to the Sikhs during the era of terrorism in Punjab. The loss of Urdu as a living and vibrant cross-cultural language and intellectual movement has done irreparable harm in this context. If bridges are to be built, real knowledge and understanding of the culture is required, both among non-Muslims and among Muslims themselves, with each confronting and coming to terms with the realities of their own mixed histories and transgressions. The culture of denial that dominates a hypocritical ‘interfaith’ discourse in this country will have to be rejected if any forward movement is to be secured in the relationship between communities.
The intellectual and cultural accomplishments of Indian Muslims are far greater than the sum of those of all other Muslim countries put together, and Indian Islam is unique in its accommodation, as it lives in peace within a multicultural, multi-religious and multi-lingual society. The Indian Muslim has repeatedly made his aspirations clear to the nation and its leadership: he wants to be Indian and Muslim. Thousands of Muslims don the Indian uniform in all of the country’s fighting forces, and have repeatedly distinguished themselves for their courage, dedication and patriotism. Muslims in India do not want the special concessions and treatments that opportunistic political leaders constantly emphasize and project; they want a real equality within a non-discriminatory social and political context. Eventually, the people want governance, they want transparency and they want justice – and Muslim aspirations are no different. It is because secular institutions are failing to provide these that fanaticism and the ghetto mentality are resurfacing in irrational but powerful ideological guise – and this is not happening in Islamic communities alone.
(Published in The Pioneer, December 20, 2003)

PS: FOR TEXT OF THE OTHER ARTICLE PLEASE SEE NEXT POST
 
Continued From Previous Post!!

Continued..............

Extremism will die in violence



Is our hatred turning us into a mirror image of what we most hate? There is a rising wave of intolerance, of narrow-mindedness, of puritanical censorship and oppression, across the country - indeed, even across much of the democratic world - today, and an increasingly aggressive assertion of exclusionary religious identities among large segments of all communities, including those that take great pride in their 'culture of tolerance'. In our revulsion and our desire to defeat it, are we all going the way of extremist Islam?
The militancy and the violence of perspectives - if not of the scale and pattern of actions - that characterise Islamist extremism today, appear to be becoming a model for the radical fringe among all faiths, including the inclusive, panentheistic traditions of the East, in a process that has sometimes been described - inaccurately - as the 'Semitisation' of these Faiths.
The desire to impose a narrow set of values, rituals, dogmas and pattern of relationships is everywhere visible, and is increasingly translated into violence. The language, idiom and political iconography of the Islamist extremists is quickly picked up and absorbed into communal and sectarian political movements elsewhere, even where these militate at the most fundamental level, against the prevalent culture.
Notice, for example, the dark puritanism of the Khalistanis in Punjab, who sought to banish all revelry, music, the bhangra, and the frenetic celebrations that have traditionally marked weddings, festivals and celebrations in the State. For 13 dark years, a dour, cheerless 'code' was inflicted through the power of the gun and the bomb, on an unwilling people. And the first and most dramatic sign that the Khalistani terror had been comprehensively defeated was when dance and music programmes came back to the State, and the Punjabi's traditional love of life was once again, manifest everywhere.
Indeed, the sheer intensity of resentment against the long suppression of these native impulses was visible in the scale and spread of the resurgence of Punjabi music and dance in the post-terrorism era, and their domination, in the years following, of so much of popular culture - including Bollywood - across India.
Regrettably, while the Khalistanis have been defeated, and Sikh Puritanism has been marginalized (though it still exists and seeks constantly to reassert itself), segments within other communities, particularly the Hindus, are seeing a revival of fundamentalist thinking, and its imposition through political intimidation and violence.
At the same time, the organisations leading such movements continue to make sweeping assertions regarding the greatness and antiquity of their culture, muddying the lines between contemporary culture and a cultural history. It is, no doubt, the case that 'Hindu culture' has a rich, indeed, opulent, and variegated history that goes back to the earliest records of human civilisation, and perhaps beyond. But this is cultural history, not living culture.
Living culture is what we practice today - and in this, our achievements are, in most ventures, at best, modest, and at worst, appalling. Culture, it has been remarked, is what remains in a man when all else is forgotten. In this, we are deeply impoverished, and there is an active effort at further constriction by aggressive religious-political groups and organisations.
There are, today, still some people who are familiar with the cultural history of ancient India, but few who would have the courage to live by the values that marked that history. Hindu fundamentalists need to remind themselves that this is the land of the Kamasutra; of the amourous Lord Krishna; of Khajuraho. A land that produced some of the world's first treatises on taste, music, dance, sex, art, and even thievery!
It is a land that recognised a multiplicity of 'ways of knowing' and rejected the idea that any single conception or explanation could ever comprehend all of reality. It is a land where atheism and agnosticism have coexisted in easy philosophical intercourse with monotheism, pantheism and panentheism. A land in which the freedom - including the freedom of sexual preference - offered to women at the time that we now imagine as the 'Golden Age of Hinduism' would amaze even the most permissive of modern cultures.
It is, moreover, a land where, even today, fragments of these practices and beliefs, albeit in forms that have been substantially perverted, continue to survive among small cults and movements - such as the aghoris and the tantriks. And where these have 'religious' pretensions even the most bizarre conduct does not attract the censure of the larger community.
On the other hand, what extremists regard as 'secular aberrations' attract enormous and organised ire. When a history textbook correctly mentions cow sacrifice and consumption of cow's meat in ancient India, there are protests. An alien and oppressive ethic is sought to be imposed on people across the country in the name of 'Hindu values' that would be completely irreconcilable with ancient 'Hindu' culture.
Even as caste polarisation remains an integral element of all our electoral politics, large segments of Hindus are being mobilised by whipping up hatred against Islam, or around campaigns against 'conversions' by Christians.
There are, of course, significant elements - the extremists and terrorists, as well as the radical Islamist states such as Pakistan, Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia - within Islam that are problematic. And the issue of religious conversion through inducement or force is one that needs to be openly debated without partisan posturing. But constructing 'our ghetto' against 'their ghetto' is no part of a solution. And seeking to impose rigid codes of conduct and narrow dogmas on society will go no way in restoring the glory of 'Hindu culture'.
Indeed, the trajectory of radical Islam and, in some measure, of the 'Islamic world' at large, is a cautionary tale in this context. At the highest point of its history, Islam was a great fountainhead and disseminator of ideas, and it was through the Islamic world that the mathematics, the sciences and the arts of India (and of the Eastern world) found their way into what was then a relatively primitive, even barbaric, Europe. Islam was the first religion in the world to become a true melting pot of races.
It was the source of an egalitarian and universal philosophy - no doubt with gender aberrations from our contemporary perspective, but radical even on this count in terms of the values of the age of its origin. Out of it, great poetry and literature, calligraphy, art and architecture sprung forth in what at one time seemed to be an endless stream.
Today, this great Faith is associated with human bombs and terrorism; with gender oppression and the hijab; with a tyrannical, colourless, morality that destroys the variegated canvas of life; and with an intellectual desert in which no rain of innovation or imagination ever refreshes the barren dunes of the mind.
The reduction of any great religious or intellectual tradition into a handful of dogmas and catechisms, of rites and rituals, and into an enveloping atmosphere of intolerance, control and coercion spells its death-knell. Many, today, argue that we will have to adopt the methods and values of extremist Islam if we are to effectively resist these - but extremist Islam itself is in its, no doubt extraordinarily violent, death throes, and it is inflicting enormous harm on the larger body of Islam itself. This is not an ideal or exemplar for other Faiths to emulate, but an abnormal deviation, a monstrous anomaly, that all cultures must shun and work to destroy.

(Published in The Pioneer, January 21, 2006)



I wish to avail myself of this opportunity to express my gratitude to all those who participated in this discussion. We sometimes slightly differ in our opinions but discussions help us a lot in shaping and reshaping our opinions. I personally believe this was a fruitful discussion. The most important thing is we could travel upto the end point.

Thanks again all learned members and best of regards!!!
 
Please put your views on trhis also.

Dear Members,
Namste,

Why to ignore the increasing POPULATION RATE of Muslims?
Uneducated Muslims don't want to go for Family Planning.
& Educated Muslims don't try to make them aware of it as they are having 10-12 children in their own home.

This is the biggest problem.......!!!!

Rest all India can Handle without problem.

But India will not be able to handle the POPULATION EXPLOTION mainly of muslims.

You imagine yourself the scene of after 30-40 years.

I imagine-
(1) As land shortage will create crises for muslims.
(2) Their now children will become then Theives.
(3) Their now children will opt the short cut of crime to get bread.
(4) Hindu-Muslim riot may occur.
(5) Goverent will not be able to handle the problem.
(6) More muslim leaders will be seen.
(7) Neighbouring countries will be finding suitable time to attack.
(8) As most of the muslim families can not provide proper food & education to all of their children so definitely most of them will become terorist.

.....................& so on.



One very good example I have observed on the Delhi-Moradabad-Rampur Highway.
During previous days so mainy loots in buses occured & as far I studied in newspapers I did not find any Hindu robber name among them.
Most of them are from Moradabad.
Moradabad is not a poor district & having lots of employment.
So think what will happen to the other areas where there is poverty is there.



So I say it again
Increasing Population of Muslims is the biggest problem of India.
& Worst thing is that, "None of them is ready to opt Family Planning".
I used to travel a lot & got chance to meet lots of Muslims also.
These observation are based on that & true to best of my knowledge.

So, please don't ignore this by just some equations.

Bye
RAHUL NADAR
 
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