Markovish -- Behaviour

[dkumars]

sorry to ask devender !!!

but this is surely off topic ( in both the circumstances : a genuine applause or a undue sarcasm ) !

A sincere request to keep the things to discussion only , the people who are discussing and not enjoying the discussion are welcome to opt out ,

I am happy that the posts thus far have clearly been on the constructive differences of opinion


Thanks !

U are bilkul right brother. Its off topic and may digress the discussion. Regading thit will talk to u sometime on chat.

One thing i want to mention here. If someone starts a thread then he may be considered as an owner of the thread but its not important that he will nourish the thread or will attach emotionally. If i start a thread then its just an idea/topic i want to share. There is nothing to do with any kind of ego that this thread is started by me and i am responsible for replies and will give right direction.
Nourishing, giving a right direction to the thread is the job of moderators.
Please dont feel offended here. Its a humble request.

 

[anilsinghd]

What we WRITE..............&............What we SPEAK

Sometimes there may be a huge difference between these two.


We judge people on their writing skills...which reflect only a glimps of WRITER's personality & not the COMPLETE PERSONA...
...but this is an era of Virtual World a Wireless World

We interface DIGITALLY but we are HUMAN being
so erruption of erratic & mawkish behaviours from some sauls is quite obvious...Let's hope of limiting it to MINIMUM...by Big Heartedly FORGIVING tolerable errors...

Because many sauls are LEARNING here...they may not at a level of Perfection yet...

BUT THEY ARE TRYING...& TRYING IT HARD

Valid points Rahul.
I agree that these days we write and speak and act differently, but thats not anywhere near ideal. Kabir said to follow "mansa , vacha , karmna " and i guess thats the way to go.

But i kind of disagree with you on judging people based on their writing skills , at least i dont do that. I have this complex theory of going beyond ! We do have examples of people who can write so good on all subjects and they seem like so learned that one could categorise them as "dev rishis" but over time one can easily make out the superficiality of their thoughts.
and they do tend to contradict themselves subtly over the same topic in thier different posts ( of course one needs to follow very closely and minutely ).

And your point of virtual world is correct , infact the whole logic of me asking a question in this thread was to do with the process of the virtual world. And your thought that erruption of erratic and markowish behaviour is obvious seems very contradictory to me. Infact the way i look at it it should be the other way round. You dotn know a person much on this virtual world , so it should automatically be obvious to you that you are not gonna be your 100 % at any point of time , you will be a bit reserved , , are not you ?
Its like with a stranger , you cannot be your natural self to him from the word go. Adn with these virtual world relations , u never know the other side completely even aftera lot of time has passed , so one "should" be a bit reserved , should not one and have no assumptions about the other.
Thats thw way to go , isnt it ?
but infact we are seeing things exactly opposite of this !

and continuing on the virtual world , i guess it is a wonderful opportunity with a lot of upside and a very little downside.
Gets me to my newest of theories which i hypothesized last week
Not to bore you a lot , but the virtual world gives you an opportunity to start a relationship with no expectations but a lot of upside if u can actually make it.
I personally have been attached to more than 50 people now ( in a little over 2 years ) and share a very nice bond and never ever have been involoved in something very bad of the same.
hope to extend the discussion on this !

BTW from where you got this definition...as I ve never seen/heard such a term like Markovish Behaviour ....pls refer that dictionary to me also.

And Impulsive what I understand is......actuated or swayed by emotional impulses,,, Inclined to act on the influence of a particular feeling, mental state(impulse) rather than thought,,, characterized by undue haste and lack of thought or deliberation,,,,determined by chance or impulse or whim rather than by necessity or reason. In that light I feel,,, behaviour of todays generation is becoming very impulsive.

Seems like a bit of confusion over the definition , and for that matter dont think even i have a definition , may be i can add a bit of clarity.

markovish as i defined it ealier refers to acting based only on the present with the assumption that present occupies all info of the past. it can be fine in case of other thingsa s stocks etc , but in human feelings and emotions , it is not such a good thing , to err is being human and if we base our decisions based only on the past and wipe out the history ( and please appreciate that the present actions/feelings of a person annot have all the info of the past ).

Neelam , at first i seemed to agree on your synonymity of markovish with implusive but after vijays post i thought on it again and i guess there are some fundamental differences which i would like to highlight :
Implusive beahviour is the pne that arises out feom an impluse and acts for a short time with a powerful magnitude ( in short thats the definition of impluse for physicists ), its a reactionary behaviour !
Markovish on the other hand is something in which it is really not the big impluse thats required to generate such a beahviour , i have seen very mild jolts generating sucha behaviour and it is also not short-lasted , becuase i have come across very few who would reverse their decision after once taking an action ( we are living in such a high ego world these days ).

I would rather make an statement and this goes without proof ( thats an hobservation from me and i hypothesize it ) ( may be you people can think on it and we can discuss ).
"" Implusive is more pronounced in personal and real world relations , markovish in virtual world applications.""
though with time , they both have general applicability.

Everybody have some relationship with their 'own' people ....... but came across some different opinions about them i.e. offline and online ...... Is Net affecting their thinking or dominating their Impulse ?

Most of the people on internet and active in the forums such as we are on here , are technocrats and these are the very people who should understand the importance of reasoning. But i gues we myself are degrading ourselves by not asking enough questions , by not putting strain on our brain , by not going behind what are the causals for a particular event.
The most important reason for sucha thing i would suppose is that most come with an attitue of pastime and having fun and for relaxation, which is not always the case i believe , because there will be ome people who will always have the propensity of having food for mind. And of course differing personalities and the fundamental of uniquneness of personalities does not help either ! We are looking for soothing of mind and when we get that from a relation ( on virtual world ) , we fall for it and we are in a fantasy world , but the moment the reality starts biting you , or the moment someone tends to disagree , or tends to make you come out of sedateness of your mind , we averse the situation.
I guess we have come to terms with the fact that we are on a virtual world , but we also need to come to terms that it is not going to be always rosy as this would rather lead to arbitrage.
We should come to terms that we will have good days and bad days , others will have good days and bad days and we have to tolerate , forgive , seek help , seek forgiveness, ultimately moving into the realm of actual world.

Of course fraternal twins ve different constitutional makeup.... its only monozygotic or identical ones who share same genetic structure. so to study the real environmental effect,,,they are the perfect cases...none else,,,,as for everyone else biological makeup has much to say.
Individuality plays a big role in the personality development....bt then most of theories of personality also talk about temperamnetal differences also. Do you know there's neural explanation for being extravert or introvert also.
Psychology gives due importance to both - heredity and environment. Some ppl are more in favor of nature,, while others nurture.... no conclusion... they both have significant role in the development.
In Psychology,,, this is the age of cognitive neuroscience... they talk about knowledge,,,, thinking,,, n other cognitive abilities,,, and their neural network. Even behaviorists ve shifted their approach to behavioral neuroscience,,,,Humanistic trends are of a valuable importance,,,as they give importance to the free will of the beings,,,what they want, what are their wishes,,, i feel that is the the real individual psychology.

I am not learned enough ( neither in biology , neural sciences nor in psychology )to extract meaning out of that.

 

[anilsinghd]

Seeking attention for oneself is much more popular than paying attention to the subject itself ..... people landed up just to comment without saying a word on the topic literally.

I guess just to comment is something which can be tolerated because it is not as harmful as people who come to comment with pre defined notions and with no willingness to even look at the points raised by others , in a sense having no regard for the opinion of others.

The real problem is when they think they are bigger than the topic itself.

 

[vijay]

We judge people on their writing skills...which reflect only a glimps of WRITER's personality & not the COMPLETE PERSONA...

What is complete persona ? I bet that write ups defines a peson if you watch closely about their write ups ............. but ya 1-2 posts can't define a personally .... but if even after hundreds/thousands of posts someone can't recognize a person than one shouldn't blame the Net rather than accpeting someone's own shortcoming to analyze a person literally.

Sometime it be entirely oppsite of what we imagine...or make someone's picture or nature or behaviour...

Why imagine only ....... can't people guess what type of a person is with whom they are talking too ..........

It's gud to have some perceptions and later blame them being on Net only

Because many sauls are LEARNING here...they may not at a level of Perfection yet...

BUT THEY ARE TRYING...& TRYING IT HARD

Asking you again ...... please tell me what is the perfection ?

 

[vijay]

Of course fraternal twins ve different constitutional makeup.... its only monozygotic or identical ones who share same genetic structure. so to study the real environmental effect,,,they are the perfect cases...none else,,,,as for everyone else biological makeup has much to say.
Individuality plays a big role in the personality development....bt then most of theories of personality also talk about temperamnetal differences also. Do you know there's neural explanation for being extravert or introvert also.
Psychology gives due importance to both - heredity and environment. Some ppl are more in favor of nature,, while others nurture.... no conclusion... they both have significant role in the development.

In Psychology,,, this is the age of cognitive neuroscience... they talk about knowledge,,,, thinking,,, n other cognitive abilities,,, and their neural network. Even behaviorists ve shifted their approach to behavioral neuroscience,,,,Humanistic trends are of a valuable importance,,,as they give importance to the free will of the beings,,,what they want, what are their wishes,,, i feel that is the the real individual psychology.

Madam Ji, Baalak hoon ..... kuchh palle nahin pada ( means couldn't understand anything ) ........... umeed hai mujhe daant nahin padegi

 

[vijay]

I would rather make an statement and this goes without proof ( thats an hobservation from me and i hypothesize it ) ( may be you people can think on it and we can discuss ).
"" Implusive is more pronounced in personal and real world relations , markovish in virtual world applications.""
though with time , they both have general applicability.

I would like to define it again ...... please bear with me

Impulsive is just a state of mind when people react unintentionally with a certain forceful thoughts for the time being while markovish behaviour is all about the pre-determined thoughts on some certain reactions of present only (forgetting the past).

Impulse prevails and passes away with the time shortly while marlovish behaviour stay tuned forever.

And above all, an Impulsive behaviour leading to behave someone as Markovish is much worse than a markovish behaviour leading someone to behave Impulsive.

But yes ..... Markovish as well as being Impulsive is bad for any human being.

 

[pscil]

I would like to define it again ...... please bear with me

Impulsive is just a state of mind when people react unintentionally with a certain forceful thoughts for the time being while markovish behaviour is all about the pre-determined thoughts on some certain reactions of present only (forgetting the past).

Impulse prevails and passes away with the time shortly while marlovish behaviour stay tuned forever.

And above all, an Impulsive behaviour leading to behave someone as Markovish is much worse than a markovish behaviour leading someone to behave Impulsive.

But yes ..... Markovish as well as being Impulsive is bad for any human being.

Nature does not merely abhor vacuum;apparantely it shuns the linear patterns too.Ancient Indians seem to have sensed these non linear patterns and tendency to cycles in time, which is in stark contrast to the western intellectual tradition.Few natural phenomena occour in straight lines or a grid of parallel lines but rather in whrols and eddies, circles or ellipses, spiral and networks.

Most of us are prisioners of the conditioned reflexs of our minds. We think as we have been brought up top think. Even when we think we are free thinkers we might choose what we think but not how we think. The later is circumscribed by training, by birth, by subtle brainwashing of society and economic and social class to which we belong. So called facts therefore seldom appear exactly the same to two different people, especially when these facts have to do with human relationships.

This brings us to the crucial connection between te part and the whole. For Goethe the whole was something dynamic and living that continually came into being "in concrete manifestations". In turn, a part was manifestation of the whole rather than just a component of it.. Neither exists without the other. The whole exists through continually manifesting in parts and parts exist as embodiments of the whole. The advaita philosphy called it the lack of duality- in other words, a false belif that there is a finite and seperate agent called self.

We take the linear model of thinking of the western intellectual tradition which is again based on the cause and effect phenomena and apply the determinancy of science to human realationships forgetting the crucial difference that we are dealing with dynamic and ever changing entities and not inert matter. We now know that advances in non linear dynamics and computer simulations are making it possible to visualise the effects of climate and epedemics.This is called scenorio building a suggested alterative to a more deterministic way such as forecasting.

This is the reason I have been saying is that we are blindly copying the western intellectual tradition of deduction, reduction, differentation and alienation leading to the markovish behaviour, while forgetting our ancient wisdom of induction, expansion, integration a system of thought based on the non duality of matter or advaita.

 

[anilsinghd]

Nature does not merely abhor vacuum;apparantely it shuns the linear patterns too.Ancient Indians seem to have sensed these non linear patterns and tendency to cycles in time, which is in stark contrast to the western intellectual tradition.Few natural phenomena occour in straight lines or a grid of parallel lines but rather in whrols and eddies, circles or ellipses, spiral and networks.

Most of us are prisioners of the conditioned reflexs of our minds. We think as we have been brought up top think. Even when we think we are free thinkers we might choose what we think but not how we think. The later is circumscribed by training, by birth, by subtle brainwashing of society and economic and social class to which we belong. So called facts therefore seldom appear exactly the same to two different people, especially when these facts have to do with human relationships.

This brings us to the crucial connection between te part and the whole. For Goethe the whole was something dynamic and living that continually came into being "in concrete manifestations". In turn, a part was manifestation of the whole rather than just a component of it.. Neither exists without the other. The whole exists through continually manifesting in parts and parts exist as embodiments of the whole. The advaita philosphy called it the lack of duality- in other words, a false belif that there is a finite and seperate agent called self.

We take the linear model of thinking of the western intellectual tradition which is again based on the cause and effect phenomena and apply the determinancy of science to human realationships forgetting the crucial difference that we are dealing with dynamic and ever changing entities and not inert matter. We now know that advances in non linear dynamics and computer simulations are making it possible to visualise the effects of climate and epedemics.This is called scenorio building a suggested alterative to a more deterministic way such as forecasting.

This is the reason I have been saying is that we are blindly copying the western intellectual tradition of deduction, reduction, differentation and alienation leading to the markovish behaviour, while forgetting our ancient wisdom of induction, expansion, integration a system of thought based on the non duality of matter or advaita.

Hello Sir ,

Thanks a lot for the clarification. What i derived from your post was one certain fact that there are things by birth and things that are there.
Also u highlighted that we are copying from the west, i tend to take your hypothesis.

Just to make it concrete , I wish in your next post you can give us some concrete examples , some real life example on where are these things put into practice. I know it would bea bit hard to turn abstract into examples but i know you can do it for sure.

thanks again for taking the discussion forward.



@ Vijay : I warn you not to say "define" because again these are person specific and are not universal.
But yes we are agreeing right ?

Just waiting for Neelam Ji to concur.

 

[neels]

I would like to define it again ...... please bear with me

Impulsive is just a state of mind when people react unintentionally with a certain forceful thoughts for the time being while markovish behaviour is all about the pre-determined thoughts on some certain reactions of present only (forgetting the past).

Impulse prevails and passes away with the time shortly while marlovish behaviour stay tuned forever.

And above all, an Impulsive behaviour leading to behave someone as Markovish is much worse than a markovish behaviour leading someone to behave Impulsive.

But yes ..... Markovish as well as being Impulsive is bad for any human being.

And I would like to ask again the source of these definitions....sply the Markovish... BEHAVIOR....

 

[neels]

I guess just to comment is something which can be tolerated because it is not as harmful as people who come to comment with pre defined notions and with no willingness to even look at the points raised by others , in a sense having no regard for the opinion of others.

The real problem is when they think they are bigger than the topic itself.

yeah..... and not only this...sometimes..its criticism just for the sake of criticism.... you don ve anything against wht is said... but lots of anguish against the person who has written it... so yu just ve to criticize.....

 

[neels]

Madam Ji, Baalak hoon ..... kuchh palle nahin pada ( means couldn't understand anything ) ........... umeed hai mujhe daant nahin padegi

Baalak tum agyan k andhere mein ho.... abhi bahut gyan ki aavshyakta hai..... means need lots to know.......


jokes apart...try to understand the essence.... i didnt explain in much detail to avoid to make it v long..... essence was... its nt only envt which is imp.. genetics is also very important in personality..... the temperamental side of personality is related to genetic endowment. ... so both are important in personality development. ... and somehow this kinda beh which yu guys are discussing is also due to temperamental differences.

GOT it......... or need one more lecture..... yu know i belong to teaching faculty...never tired of giving lectures.... HA HA HA

 

[vijay]

And I would like to ask again the source of these definitions....sply the Markovish... BEHAVIOR....

Technically or more precisely English meaning/definitions of the words Impulsive and Markovish can be found in any Modern English Dictionary ...

But yes ... here we are discussing about human behaviour which can be termed as Markovish or Impulsive ...... a broad spectrum indeed. We can't refer any link or any object to define them precisely. But we can try to know the meaning of the word itself first and then analyze a specific human behaviour according to that norms. Any Dictionary can't tell/describe a big why behind that behaviour but we humans can try to understand and describe that why ...... and that is the real source of our definitions ........ practically ...... isn't it ?

 

[neels]

Technically or more precisely English meaning/definitions of the words Impulsive and Markovish can be found in any Modern English Dictionary ...

But yes ... here we are discussing about human behaviour which can be termed as Markovish or Impulsive ...... a broad spectrum indeed. We can't refer any link or any object to define them precisely. But we can try to know the meaning of the word itself first and then analyze a specific human behaviour according to that norms. Any Dictionary can't tell/describe a big why behind that behaviour but we humans can try to understand and describe that why ...... and that is the real source of our definitions ........ practically ...... isn't it ?

Agreed to the second part of the post... bt dictionary.com has no word like markovish.... its a technical term of science,, agree can be adapted to general usage in terms of behavior...bt yu cant say tht its defined as such..... depends on ones own thought process,,,how one takes it.

 

[vijay]

Agreed to the second part of the post... bt dictionary.com has no word like markovish.... its a technical term of science,, agree can be adapted to general usage in terms of behavior...bt yu cant say tht its defined as such..... depends on ones own thought process,,,how one takes it.

Agree ....... Impulsive is a technical English word while Markovish is purely a Mathematical Term ......

Yup .... thought process ..... that's what i mean exactly ........ how, where and what we thought in different circumstances

 

[neels]

Seems like a bit of confusion over the definition , and for that matter dont think even i have a definition , may be i can add a bit of clarity.

markovish as i defined it ealier refers to acting based only on the present with the assumption that present occupies all info of the past. it can be fine in case of other thingsa s stocks etc , but in human feelings and emotions , it is not such a good thing , to err is being human and if we base our decisions based only on the past and wipe out the history ( and please appreciate that the present actions/feelings of a person annot have all the info of the past ).

Neelam , at first i seemed to agree on your synonymity of markovish with implusive but after vijays post i thought on it again and i guess there are some fundamental differences which i would like to highlight :
Implusive beahviour is the pne that arises out feom an impluse and acts for a short time with a powerful magnitude ( in short thats the definition of impluse for physicists ), its a reactionary behaviour !
Markovish on the other hand is something in which it is really not the big impluse thats required to generate such a beahviour , i have seen very mild jolts generating sucha behaviour and it is also not short-lasted , becuase i have come across very few who would reverse their decision after once taking an action ( we are living in such a high ego world these days ).

I would rather make an statement and this goes without proof ( thats an hobservation from me and i hypothesize it ) ( may be you people can think on it and we can discuss ).
"" Implusive is more pronounced in personal and real world relations , markovish in virtual world applications.""
though with time , they both have general applicability.

I am not learned enough ( neither in biology , neural sciences nor in psychology )to extract meaning out of that.

hope yu can extract some meaning of that now...

virtual world n relations..... this is an intersting area.... so much happening...n nothing real.... a perfect subject to study....
Your hypothesis sounds intersting n have some substance....can be tested......
very true... ego is on all time high ride these days..

 

[neels]

Yup .... thought process ..... that's what i mean exactly ........ how, where and what we thought in different circumstances

And thats all what cognitions are... Cognitive psychology..yu see....

 

[anilsinghd]

matlab saaaron ne kasam khaa rakhi idhar udhar bhatakne ki


just kidding , infact i am finding it interesting that the topic has led to several difft things involved into it.


But we must address the issue as well.


Neelam ji , u r right in saying that we dont have a formal definition of the word - markovish. Infact i created it by using markov +ish.

And i just used it to describe the pattern of beahviour i observe.
so i agree that my perspective can be difft from yours and thats y i put it to discussion.

In parts , but we have agreed that we are behaving in a manner that is close to the definition of markovish me and vijay ( in patches ) have put across.

And as Parvir Sir have theorised that it arises from blind copying of the west and we are all expecting hiim to substantiate this with real life examples in his next post.

WE must also try and suggest the steps we must take in order to avoid such things as these are surely not ideal.

Lets discuss on : are there any specific circumstances ( our life , work life ) or may be anything substantial ( when we compare and contrast the real and the virtual world ) that lead to this ?

And can we do better and if yes then how ?


Thanks and Regards,
Anil

 

[neels]

I would rather make an statement and this goes without proof ( thats an hobservation from me and i hypothesize it ) ( may be you people can think on it and we can discuss ).
"" Implusive is more pronounced in personal and real world relations , markovish in virtual world applications.""
though with time , they both have general applicability.

Well i don feel so completely....thou its correct to some aspects...

Their are impulsive reactions in virtual world also stimes.....n some markovish beh patterns in real life too can be seen.
n s times which i find most strange...we ve predispositions abt ppl..whom we don know well.. don ve any reason fr those biases...bt we ve.... we don like some ppl ...n we ve no specific or general reasons fr these feelings.

 

[vijay]

And thats all what cognitions are... Cognitive psychology..yu see....

Cognitive psychology is mostly based on perceptions and reasons behind that perceptions ........... so should we include the word perception to discuss further

 

[anilsinghd]

Well i don feel so completely....thou its correct to some aspects...

Their are impulsive reactions in virtual world also stimes.....n some markovish beh patterns in real life too can be seen.
n s times which i find most strange...we ve predispositions abt ppl..whom we don know well.. don ve any reason fr those biases...bt we ve.... we don like some ppl ...n we ve no specific or general reasons fr these feelings.

Agreed and thats y i wrote with time they have general applicability !


==========

whom we don know well.. don ve any reason fr those biases...bt we ve.... we don like some ppl ...n we ve no specific or general reasons fr these feelings

==========

Regarding this , i guess we cannot say we dont have "any" reasons for biases , but surely this is possible that the reasons are too small to even consider. ( Because if u absolutely dont have any reason for a bias , one cant be normal , on a more serious note , the reasons can be just that we dont like the persons profile , may be a pic , in the sense that he/she is not percieved by us as a specific type we like ! )

The more important thing is that we are avert to change , we are so so resistant and this undermines us.
For example , even i dont like a f ew people when i just know nothing about them , example on jatland someone posts and might be it is his first post ( or the first i have seen ) , and i dont tend to like him.
But i never refrain myself from building on the perception , i never constrain myself from changing my stance.

Again going technical on this , for me its like an assumed parameter ( the initial percpetion ) and then i iterate till i re ach the percpetion that is strong enough to change or more technically that is not changed with mild discontinuities or events.

And that leads me to yet another important aspect ( and it suits the context perfectly ); i believe that there should be continuity in things ( again that goes without proof , its a hunch of me ) , continuity in thoughts , feelings , smooth is nice.
Its the discontinuity ( sudden rise or fall ( being too recpetive to events ) ) that causes wrong things.

Any comments on that ?