Khap Panchayat and Indian Judicial System

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Samarkadian said:
This wanabe Shoba De aka feminist lead can be tamed here through TOI editor-in-cheif.

To send a letter to the editor, use this form at http://in.indiatimes.com/feedback.cms and choose "Letter to the editor" which sends email to editor@indiatimes.co.in

Wikipedia says the Editor-in-Chief's name is Jaideep Bose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Times_o…

Phone numbers:- 3312277,3318852,23312271

http://delhigovt.nic.in/press.asp
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I saw the form, but thought it was for Indiatimes. Didn't see TOI option. Would send a letter to the editor and see what happens.
 
Samarkadian said:
This wanabe Shoba De aka feminist lead can be tamed here through TOI editor-in-cheif.

To send a letter to the editor, use this form at http://in.indiatimes.com/feedback.cms and choose "Letter to the editor" which sends email to editor@indiatimes.co.in

Wikipedia says the Editor-in-Chief's name is Jaideep Bose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Times_o…

Phone numbers:- 3312277,3318852,23312271

http://delhigovt.nic.in/press.asp
Click to expand...

Just used the form to send this letter to the editor. I checked later that my letter had 4000+ characters, and the form had said 1000 characters. Neverthless, I did get "Thank You For Sending Your Feedback![FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
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". If I don't get a response, I will use the email address (where did u get it from?). Here is the letter:[/FONT]

Dear Sir,

This is with reference to the story that appeared on this link:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...lls-for-wayward-girls/articleshow/4984365.cms

I had written a critical comment on the same link directed to Ms. Nandita Sengupta. Though critical, it was devoid of any foul language. To the best of my knowledge, I didn't violate any of the usual etiquettes one should bear in mind before posting an online comment. So I was extremely disappointed when my comment was not published. As a leading media organization, TOI was expected to have some stomach for freedom of speech. And of course, I didn't even receive any reason on why comment was not published.

Coming back to the story, it is an example of how far the journalistic standards have fallen. It is apparent that Ms. Sengupta has literally invented the piece from her pre-conceived notions. Words like "casual" and "routine" have been used to describe murders as if it is some hobby pursued by these villagers in their leisure time. She has absolutely no idea of what she is talking about. Here is another gem, "Interestingly, the entire onus of ‘siblinghood’ rests on the girl." How is that even a logical statement? There are no lesbians being murdered for dishonouring "siblinghood". So how can the onus be only on the girl? She goes on, "Exceptions may be made for a boy, if the khap decides, but a girl is never allowed to bend the rules." How can a girl single-handedly bend the rule!!? For the rule to bent, she'd have to marry a boy from the same village, right!? I won't even bother about going into her description of Khaps as social workers and the decisions/exceptions she is attributing to them carte blanche.

While there is no honour in killing (and there is no denying that there have been honour killings), the reality is far from what your reporter is trying to present here. It seems her aim is to use the "shock and awe" technique on the readers. So many cases of rapes, murders, hangings, pesticide pills in one village; and she couldn't mention ONE SPECIFIC CASE? Rather than the "mysterious" death of the "10-12" females as quantified by her, what seems more mysterious to me is their very existence- if they existed in real, I wonder how a talented journalist like her couldn't delve deeper into ONE SPECIFIC CASE? And there are some absolute bloopers. Like "If a couple runs away, the women in their families run the risk of being raped, gang-raped, and boycotted." I think she forgot to mention the public lashings, eye-balls being gorged out, nails taken off, etc. etc. I mean comeon!

And let's be clear. There is no denying that honour killings are a sad reality. Indeed, there have been cases where families kill their own in the name of honour, when some social customs are violated. It is shameful and barbaric even if it happens much less rampantly than what your reporter is trying to suggest. People like her, who want to sensationalize everything without understanding anything, are a part of the problem. No social evil (and honour killings for whatever reason are a social evil) has ever been rooted out by painting a negative picture of the people who believe in it. In this case, Ms. Sengupta and her counterparts don't even understand the difference between social custom and social evil. When they are befuddled by the "complicated logic" (Quoting from another piece done by Ms. Divya A on Dharana) of a social custom, they call it social evil, effortlessly switching from one to the other using their vivid imagination to fill in the huge gaps of logic.

Interestingly, on doing my little research on Ms. Nandita Sengupta, I am a bit more enlightened of her credentials (or lack of them). Back in 2005, she felt so strongly against TOI and its journalistic standards, that she was writing on a public forum about the same. Link below:
http://wef.blogs.com/editors/2005/06/india_the_ragin.html

From this, I wonder if she has purposely decreased her standards to be in line with TOI's standards or if TOI's standards are falling because of journalists like here.

I hope your newspaper still has the gumption to carry critical views. If not, atleast have the decency to acknowledge receipt.

Warm Regards,
Kapil Dalal
 
bharti said:
Kapil, the Edit Page Mailbox invites views and comments at mytimesmyvoice@timesgroup.com with Editor,Delhi in the subject line.
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Thanks Bhartiji! I will send it to the above email ID tonight/tomorrow.

To be honest though, the best response would be a progressive Khap that unconditionally condemns honour killings and take whatever steps it can to stop the same. I have made a case for this earlier based on Khaps' moral authority. Maybe it won't stop even one honour killing, but there is no harm trying, and it'd only help improve Khaps'/community's perceived image. Since you have been involved with Khaps, do you think Khaps are willing to introspect? Or is it too much to expect?
 
Kapil, whatever brief interaction I have had with the Khap Pradhans/ Representatives, I am all hopeful.

It is not that these old men are not ready to listen to you or they are not ready to change. But then there has to be a way to put your point to them. Try 'teaching' or 'preaching', none would care about you.Especially Jats. Develop confidence, make them believe you are part of them, not any 'outsider', they would give you all respect and listen to you.
Has anyone ever tried this?
Maybe now some are trying that.

Also,it is not that Khaps have not changed certain rules with changing times. With changing times when they realised that certain Big Gotras like Malik were finding it difficult to find matches, it was the colletive decision of Gathwala(Malik) Khap that if both -the boys' and girls' grandmother's gotra was Malik, they could leave it.
So we cannot say Khaps are too rigid to change.

There has been no fatwa issued or any flogging of women for doing away with 'ghoongats'. People are accepting these changing trends.
A 'Sengupta' might call a woman in any village in 'ghoonghat' or 'dhaatha' as backward but she would find the girls in city like Pune zooming around on 2-wheelers with scarves tied exactly as 'dhaatha'(the women in villages wrap their dupatta in a peculiar way around their face while working to avoid dust or otherwise where only the eyes are visible), that would be trendy!

Kapil, with things changing at a great pace especially in last 8-10 years, it is not only people in rural areas who are finding it difficult but people in cities like Delhi too have not been able to keep pace.
Ask any parent of a school going teenager especially those who go to the ones with big names how difficult parenting has become. How the parents as well as teachers are shocked to see boys with low-waist trousers and girls all trying to be like Kalki of Dev-D. Same Times of India had come with a big story on this issue as well and had given statements of shock of some famous schools and the corrective measures being taken by them. Why? Let the children follow the latest trends.
It takes time to adapt to these changes trends.

Coming back to Khaps. Kapil, I am not defending the wrong decisions that might have been taken by Khaps, but I do believe that they too are evolving. Give them some time.
Again whatever little I know about the Khaps, I think they are still better than the 'democratically' elected Panchayats which are politicised so much so that it creates enimity amongst the people of same village because of the interference of Political parties/Local MLA, MP and the kind of money involved. Try to find out the amount of money spent in these panchayat elections to win so that later they can swallow the funds from the Centre/State meant for development of village.
The contestants must be spending lakhs in these elections. Why?
Except for few places, it is all too politicised.

But whatever be the situation presently, I am still hopeful that positive changes will take place.
Maybe, Khaps should hire some Latika Khaneja for image-building ;)

regards,
bharti.
 
bharti said:
Kapil, whatever brief interaction I have had with the Khap Pradhans/ Representatives, I am all hopeful.
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Bhartiji, I have absolutely no issue with whatever you said above. It is all valid. With time, rules will change as they become unsustainable, as they have changed in the past. So I have no issues with the current rules.

Main mudda to honour killing ka hai jisse na sirf parivaaron ki matti-paleet ho rahi hai balki kaum bhi badnaam ho rahi hai. And this can be presented to Khaps in a very respectable way. Ki aap log buzurg ho, Chaudhri ho. Yahaan aapki chaudhar mein log khulle aam katle-aam karr rahe hain aur fir seena thok rahe hain ki humne sahi kiya aur khap hamaare saath hai. Jiske bachhon ne samaaj ke niyam tode, usne un bachhon ko maarke kaunsa teer maara? Sabse pehli galti to uski parvarish main rahi hogi. Aur apni galti ki saza usne bachhon ko de di!? If they agree with the logic, they should themselves feel obliged to take action.

Trust me, if Khaps show moral leadership on this issue (and other such social evils like female infanticide) in an honorable way, no Latika Khanejas would be required for image building. The same idiotic Senguptas would sing paeans in praise of "forward-looking, progressive and honest community leaders". To hell with Senguptas. In the first place, that would be the right thing to do.
 
kapil.dalal said:
Bhartiji, I have absolutely no issue with whatever you said above. It is all valid. With time, rules will change as they become unsustainable, as they have changed in the past. So I have no issues with the current rules.

Main mudda to honour killing ka hai jisse na sirf parivaaron ki matti-paleet ho rahi hai balki kaum bhi badnaam ho rahi hai. And this can be presented to Khaps in a very respectable way. Ki aap log buzurg ho, Chaudhri ho. Yahaan aapki chaudhar mein log khulle aam katle-aam karr rahe hain aur fir seena thok rahe hain ki humne sahi kiya aur khap hamaare saath hai. Jiske bachhon ne samaaj ke niyam tode, usne un bachhon ko maarke kaunsa teer maara? Sabse pehli galti to uski parvarish main rahi hogi. Aur apni galti ki saza usne bachhon ko de di!? If they agree with the logic, they should themselves feel obliged to take action.

Trust me, if Khaps show moral leadership on this issue (and other such social evils like female infanticide) in an honorable way, no Latika Khanejas would be required for image building. The same idiotic Senguptas would sing paeans in praise of "forward-looking, progressive and honest community leaders". To hell with Senguptas. In the first place, that would be the right thing to do.
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Kapil Khaps are not something that intruppt in family matters unless and untill you call a panchayat people never geather. It is not something like people of same village or they are conneted through internet.
Still they are using indian postal service. No one is paying them to go in panchayat. For sake of society they are doing this job for free. If you have a say meet any panchayat head ask him to post letter and call sarvakhap. This is not something that you can do from UK.


Aadmi ko apne bache marna kaisa lagta hoga ye kaise keh sakte ho.
Agar apni izzat ke liye koi apne kaleje ke tukde ko maarta hai to use kyon rokenge?
Izzat ke liya marna aur maarna jato se chudwa diya to jat ki jagah naam aage sharma la dyo.
 
kapil.dalal said:
Trust me, if Khaps show moral leadership on this issue (and other such social evils like female infanticide) in an honorable way, no Latika Khanejas would be required for image building. The same idiotic Senguptas would sing paeans in praise of "forward-looking, progressive and honest community leaders". To hell with Senguptas. In the first place, that would be the right thing to do.
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Kapil, during the seminar at Maharaja Surajmal Institute, one of the speakers' made a mention of female foeticide to be a personal issue(he was no Khap Pradhan).
When I was invited to speak, the first thing I spoke was on this.
I said I beg to differ. Agar female foeticide personal issue hai to fir shaadi bhi ek personal issue hai. Fir kyon maar detey hain apne gotr/guhaand mein shaadi karne par? Unki marji, kisi se bhi karein shaadi.
Haryana, jahan ek bhains bhi 40-50000 se kam mein nahi aati, wahan log 2-25000 mein biwi khareed kar le aate hain! kyon? kyonki apne yahan to ladkiyaan paida hone nahi detey,to fir aur jagah se khareedkar hi laayenge. chahe kharnaa hi kharaab ho jaaye. chahe wo chuhdi/ chamari kisi bhi gotr ki ho koi farak nahi padta. Na hi koi panchayat ismein kuchch kethi hai aur na hi koi katal hotey.
Kyon, ye personal issue ho gaya? Koi farak nahi padta samaj ko?

Amidst slight smiles on this Kharnaa word I mentioned, all I could hear was Shame! Shame!

As I went back to take my seat, the same gentleman who had made the mention of foeticide was so apologetic that I was embarassed. Maybe he had never thought it this way.

Anyway, I had put across my message :)
 
Dear friends
I have not gone through this thread (it take hours to read whole thread).The point i am raising here, might have been raised earlier. I was reading thread: [FONT=&quot]Married Adult children abandoning Parents in America - Indians[/FONT]
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?p=224404&posted=1#post224404
I think, incident told by ritu ji is only one of the examples what is happening in our society. These issues must be raised in our panchayat/ kahp panchayat. Peoplle who are doing such shameful acts must be punished.
 
rakeshsehrawat said:
Kapil Khaps are not something that intruppt in family matters unless and untill you call a panchayat people never geather. It is not something like people of same village or they are conneted through internet.
Still they are using indian postal service. No one is paying them to go in panchayat. For sake of society they are doing this job for free. If you have a say meet any panchayat head ask him to post letter and call sarvakhap. This is not something that you can do from UK.
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Bhai teri Khap ki description to aisi hai ki jaise yeh bin jabde ke boodhe sher hain, jinhain sirf dahaadne ke liye kabhi-kabhi ikhatta kiya jaata hai. I hope they don't think like you and are much better leaders than that.

rakeshsehrawat said:
Aadmi ko apne bache marna kaisa lagta hoga ye kaise keh sakte ho.
Agar apni izzat ke liye koi apne kaleje ke tukde ko maarta hai to use kyon rokenge?
Izzat ke liya marna aur maarna jato se chudwa diya to jat ki jagah naam aage sharma la dyo.
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Kuchh ek aadmi aur woh bhi Jat to apni ladkiyon ko paida hone se pehle hi maar dete hain. Woh bhi personal matter hi hoga aur shaayad izzat bhi badhti hogi?
On a lighter note, I'd find infinitely more honorable to be a Rakesh Sharma and travel in space than being a Rakesh Sehrawat killing for fake honour.
 
bazardparveen said:
Dear friends
I have not gone through this thread (it take hours to read whole thread).The point i am raising here, might have been raised earlier. I was reading thread: [FONT=&quot]Married Adult children abandoning Parents in America - Indians[/FONT]
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?p=224404&posted=1#post224404
I think, incident told by ritu ji is only one of the examples what is happening in our society. These issues must be raised in our panchayat/ kahp panchayat. Peoplle who are doing such shameful acts must be punished.
Click to expand...

Nyun kyukar bhai...yeh bhi personal matter hai...pehle yeh bata ki chitthi likh ke panchayat kaun bulaayega?
 
kapil.dalal said:
Nyun kyukar bhai...yeh bhi personal matter hai...pehle yeh bata ki chitthi likh ke panchayat kaun bulaayega?
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bhai kapil, nue to bhay bhi personal matter sae..............uda to jiba log kadda ho ja sae:D:D....................Joke apart,I don't know who will call because i don't know how khap panchyat works. but one thing is sure if Panchyat take action in these matters then everybody will support them.
 
Khap Panchayat

There has been a lot of media attention on the marriages within Gotras and expert advise rendered by many a champions. I had written to the Times of India , in reply to various articles published in the paper. Understandably, they have not published the article.I am reproducing the same below.


To My Sister I Marry : Never​


Medieval justice, love marriages doomed, back a few centuries, Taliban of India are few of the verdicts pronounced by the media and the conscience keepers of the faith on the happenings in and around the villages of the Capital Region. They have catapulted into prominence the ‘Khap Panchayat System’, little known till recently. Unfortunately, the people who are sitting on judgment know very little about the social customs of the this area and have made no attempt to educate themselves even in the last few months, when the so called honour killings came into prominence. I personally condemn all such acts of killing and neither does the ‘Khap’ nor the community allows these. Why then are these killings taking place and why the ‘Khaps’ are dictating terms when we have a time tested judiciary in place. More so in an area adjacent to the National Capital Region and in some of the most prosperous states / region of the country (Haryana , rural Delhi, Western UP, parts of Rajasthan and even Punjab). Certainly things are not as simple as brought to us by the ‘social champions’ through the media.
It is beyond argument that the social customs of an area are the basis of law of that land and not the other way around. Thus, Muslims have a different law based on their customs and Hindus have a different law. However, customs of Hindus vary from one geographical region to another (since these are unwritten) and hence the law tries to accommodate such variations. The Hindu Marriage Act does not permit marriage between brother and sister (unless custom permits, as in certain South Indian communities).
At this point it is pertinent to understand who Jats are and are they actually as barbaric and backward as projected by some section of the media. Jats are staunch Aryans and do not believe in idol worship. They worship their ancestors and each village has its own shrine dedicated to its ancestors. Thus, age old customs and traditions are more dear to them than even their own sibling. Customs like widow marriage in the late husband’s family, to keep the ‘ijjat’ within family, are still prevalent . Today, the Jats make some of the best soldiers and farmers due to their hard work, dedication and self respect.
Would it then be right to term a successful, dedicated and patriotic community as ‘Taliban of India’? The answer lies in our perception . Perhaps we still perceive village life and customs as seen in Bollywood movies. Ironically , it’s not the truth what is projected in films and wrongly assimilated by our urban thinkers. Take a closer look in any village around Delhi . It generally consists of only one or two ‘Gotras’. Most Gotras form a cluster of neighboring villages. Thus, all boys and girls in a village are brothers and sisters. They are cousins from same descendents and must act and behave as such. There is nothing wrong in that expectation. Most Indian religions and communities ( except Muslims ) do not allow marriage between brothers and sisters. This is what the ‘Khap Panchayat’ has been saying and interference by ignorant media has catapulted a non issue into national debate.
Let us understand and respect the local customs and find social solutions rather than imposing an alien one. The action by the ‘Khap Panchyat’ to seek legal redress and amendments to the Hindu Marriage Act is a step in the right direction and must be analysed by the sociologists to render correct advice. If reason fails to understand , support and honour local customs then may be Taliban is around the corner (or around the NCR). - Col TS Dalal (Retd)
 
bazardparveen said:
bhai kapil, nue to bhay bhi personal matter sae..............uda to jiba log kadda ho ja sae:D:D....................Joke apart,I don't know who will call because i don't know how khap panchyat works. but one thing is sure if Panchyat take action in these matters then everybody will support them.
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Bhai Panchayat to munaadi kar ke bulayi jaya kare.. Aajkal advance ho rhe h log to phone pe btala lende honge ke flaani jagah panchayat se bula laiyo apne gaam aalyan ne..
Er bhai parveen jo mudda tane suggest karya se Khap panchayat ko, wo discuss karna bahot jaruri h in Khap panchayatan me kyuki isi panchayat me aadhe ghar te dabadkaaye hod log e jaya kare jinki unke ghar me bhoojh nahi hoti.Er honor killing karke sher bane rah se.
Bhai inke kanoono/reetiyon ke khilaf koi nahi h, khilaf hai to inki mansikta ke. Insan h bhai hum, jaanvar nahi jo aadmi ko mar de.

We should abide by the rules but not at the cost of life!
 
kapil.dalal said:
Nyun kyukar bhai...yeh bhi personal matter hai...pehle yeh bata ki chitthi likh ke panchayat kaun bulaayega?
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On a serious note , do not you and the other protagonists in the ongoing discussion believe that it is nothing mroe than a lack of proper description , specification that is causing issues?

I mean where is the official document of what comes under khap panchayats and what not?

Where is a proper agenda of what they are supposed to do? And how are they evolving.


Sorry to be sounding technical on this but frankly it does not take a lot to describe what exactly is the plan , the vision or something similar. I happened to read a document related to regi stration of NGO and was scrared like anything , its so formal and legal and blah blah but practically it did not convey any iota of information , We no more can run our nation / villages etc on unwritten promises and cannot leave things to the "wisdom" of people.
We keep on talking of politics all day long and parties but frankly its time we make people accountable , we start judging on basis of work done out of work promised.

Mathematics is a basic science and i do not think it takes a PHD to calculate x/y , any illiterate people can do that as well.

Proper specifications and accountability and transparency are the keys.
 
tejsd said:
There has been a lot of media attention on the marriages within Gotras and expert advise rendered by many a champions. I had written to the Times of India , in reply to various articles published in the paper. Understandably, they have not published the article.I am reproducing the same below.


To My Sister I Marry : Never​

- Col TS Dalal (Retd)[/FONT][/SIZE]
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Col. Dalal

Good article.


TOI is studiuosly avoiding publishing any comments which are against their 'line'.

We will have to develop a coordinated strategy.

How many more people have posted comments, which have not appeared?

Please contact me

Ravi Chaudhary
 
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