12 points by MahaPanchayat - How much you agree?
- Thread starter hemanthooda
- Start date
suniljakhar
New member
http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_player.php?id=1226277
In debate above, I liked the way Madhu Kishwar has put in the subject in context with law / belief / traditions!!
I wish Dr. O.P. Dhankhar would have exploited the opportunity in one of the other debates to let people (millions of people across India) know what Khap Panchayat / Sarv Khap Panchayat are; how are these different from legal Panchayats and what was / is their context in rural society particulary in northern states where these forms are present (i.e. in Jat dominated areas).
In debate above, I liked the way Madhu Kishwar has put in the subject in context with law / belief / traditions!!
I wish Dr. O.P. Dhankhar would have exploited the opportunity in one of the other debates to let people (millions of people across India) know what Khap Panchayat / Sarv Khap Panchayat are; how are these different from legal Panchayats and what was / is their context in rural society particulary in northern states where these forms are present (i.e. in Jat dominated areas).
On a lighter note, assuming 3 crore Jats, that amounts to 0.000000003 people. Maybe you added some extra zeros
On a serious note, I agree that it has become a big deal only because of the "corrective" action taken by vigilante/families. There is no evidence, not even anecdotal, to support that more people are opting for same-gotra marriages. On the flip side, if more and more people actually start opting for it, then the said law would anyways become defunct.
Customs and culture survive and thrive through voluntary acceptance and not imposition by law/force.
Raviji,
Thanks for acknowledging the danger.
I don't think examples of minority appeasment, that we so love to berate otherwise, should be given as an argument here. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Jats can feel proud of their gotra exclusion system, inculcate the same values to their future generations and socially discard those who violate the socially accepted norms. There is no law stopping them from doing any of this. If that is not enough, then some legal jargon written by some babu in his office is not going to make an iota of a difference. These "rare" cases are still happening, despite the history of honour killings. What sort of legal punishment do you really foresee that would be more influential than fear of death and force these determined outliers to fall in line? The law at max can declare the marriage null and void, only post the fact. But it can't stop these people from conjugal relations. Nor can it terminate children born from such relations (By the way, to assume that children are not being born out of illicit relations that violate the gotra exclusion system but are non-public and hence non-controversial, would be a bit naive. This would be happening at a much bigger scale than the 2-3 public, controversial cases where couples decide to marry). So it won't make any positive difference to purity of bloodline theory.
Not that I agree with the theory as commonly understood and talked about on this forum. The scientific argument says that greater the ancestor difference between two reproducing individuals, the better. The ancestors here are strictly the direct relations that impact the genetic makeup of the offspring. Higher the level, more are the ancestors in between, better it is. So a couple having a common ancestor at level 3 (great grandmother) or beyond of its matriarchal line is worse-off (scientifically) than a same gotra couple having a common ancestor of their gotra at level 4. In other words if one marries someone from his own gotra with whom he shares an ancestor at great-great grandfather level, it is genetically better than marrying someone from an "approved" gotra with whom he shares an ancestor at great grandmother level. Though all this is just an academic argument to say what is relatively better. Practically speaking, 2/3 levels of non-overlap is sufficient. The much hyped genetic disorders are found in communities that have systemic inbreeding, that is continuous mating between first cousins, uncle-niece, etc. I think I have written something detailed on this elsewhere on JL. My point is that arguing about the scientific basis of this social custom is unscientific. Customs and culture are a part of a shared value system- they need not (and in most cases donot) have any scientific basis. They don't lose anything from not having one.
Jats are not the only ones that are "sacrificing" on this issue. A diverse religion like Hinduism has millions of customs practised by thousands of castes and subcastes. Even the gotra exclusion tradition is not exclusive to Jats and is shared by many other castes. Is it possible to enshrine these millions of customs in one single law? This can only open a pandora's box. Tomorrow someone (doesn't have to be a Jat) would demand making provisions for banning inter-caste or inter-religion marriages . Would that also be right? Then someone may talk about Sati/child marriage as being a honored custom and demand provision for that in the law. There is no end to it.
Having said that, if the community leadership can spend valuable resources, time, energy and focus to get this enshrined in the Indian law, I'd grudgingly accept it as yet another example of misplaced priorities. But there would be some succour in it being within the ambit of law as opposed to the lawless tendencies of some that only bring disrepute to the entire community.
Times View
Leaders are supposed to lead. But in Haryana we are watching a shocking spectacle of top leaders — one, an ex-chief minister, and the other, a poster boy of the Congress youth brigade — being led by medieval forces that are drumming up "popular sentiment" to justify a barbaric social system. These politicians appear to have lost sight of as basic a thing as what's right and what's wrong. Modern India can't be built just by economic progress; it must have social progress as well. The political class, therefore, has to resist this timid surrender by Haryana politicians to the murderous khaps.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...l-to-back-khap-demand/articleshow/5914708.cms
Leaders are supposed to lead. But in Haryana we are watching a shocking spectacle of top leaders — one, an ex-chief minister, and the other, a poster boy of the Congress youth brigade — being led by medieval forces that are drumming up "popular sentiment" to justify a barbaric social system. These politicians appear to have lost sight of as basic a thing as what's right and what's wrong. Modern India can't be built just by economic progress; it must have social progress as well. The political class, therefore, has to resist this timid surrender by Haryana politicians to the murderous khaps.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...l-to-back-khap-demand/articleshow/5914708.cms
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Appreaciate all participation and views by fellow members.
View's opposing Amendment make sense to me but I think there are some other things involved which should be considered as well.
Why the marriage between incests in not recognised?? I guess because societies think its immoral and wants to discourage it. Same as gay unions. (Dont read between lines and assume I approve/disapprove Gay thing).
Hinduism Views on incest : Hinduism speaks of incest in highly abhorrent terms. Hindus were greatly fearful of the bad effects of incest and thus practice strict rules of both endogamy and exogamy within castes (Varna in Hinduism) but not in the same family tree (gotra) or bloodline (Pravara). Marriages within the gotra ("swagotra" marriages) are banned under the rule of exogamy in the traditional matrimonial system.
What the law say: Hindu Marriage Act
3. Definitions. In this Act, unless the context otherwise
requires,-
(a). the expressions "custom" and "usage" signify anyrule
which, having been continuously and uniformly observed for a
long time, has obtained the force of law among Hindus in any
local area, tribe, community, group or family:
4. Overiding effect of Act.
4. Overiding effect of Act. Save as otherwise expressly provided
in this Act,-
(a) any text rule or interpretation of Hindu law or any
custom or usage as part of that law in force immediately
before
(Hindu marriages.)
the commencement of this Act shall cease to have effect with
respect to any matter for which provision is made in this
Act;
(b) any other law in force immediately before the
commencement of this Act shall cease to have effect in so far
as it is inconsistent with any of the provisions contained in
this Act.
The following condition need to be satisfied for a hindu marriage.
the parties are not within the degrees of prohibited relationship unless the custom or usage governing
each of them permits of a marriage between the two;
The below is banned in HMA
HMA, section 2(b) of the Special Marriage Act prohibited martial relationships in half or uterine blood as well as full blood, illegitimate and legitimate blood and by adoption.
The full blood and half blood means two persons said to be related to each other by full blood when they are descended from a common ancestor by the same wife and by half blood, when descended from a common ancestor but by different wives. By uterine blood, it means two persons said to be related to each other by uterine blood when they are descended from a common ancestress but by different husbands
The Marriage ACT isnt clear on the same Gotra thing. But it claim to recognise the 'customs' of various tribes. Unless this is clearly mentioned in the law it would be of no use as hard to challenge. The law which isnt clear will get changed sooner or later. Sooner is better than later in this case.
I guess HMA was made by Nehrus and Ambedkars who has little knowldge of these things. Lol
Note: I am no Law expert and would request other members in this field to correct me on my understanding of the law.
This 'Samgotra' thing is widely followed by other North indians as well.
I guess what people are demanding is to recongnise this custom of Jats and other North Indians by the Govt and has this clearly mentioned in the Law. The communities who wants to be governed by it can get themselves clearly mentioned. Thats it. No big deal. But the only problem is what will happen to the people who are Jats/Other North indians and want to marry in the same Gotras??
I guess they should be given an option to go ahead by anything similar to the following:
Announce in a public newspaper or in village Panchayat that they no longer follow this particular tribe's or whatever customs to whom they belong. Villagers will decide whether they want to talk to them or not.
Now marriage in same village is bit tricky. Though followed by majority there are some jats who dont follow it.
Some people say Khaps are becoming irrevalant these days. I agree to them to an extent. Also many baagad areas doesnt have khaps. But once these same Gotra thing is recongnised by the Govt, Khaps shouldnt/wouldnt interfere there after in any marriage and I guess thats a good thing for the society as it would be governed directly by the law not by any other body.
By this are we going forward or backward?? I guess it would be a positive change as everything would be taken care of by the Law of the land. We cant afford these things to be governed by leaders of Khaps anymore as that can conflict law of the Land legally which overrides anyway and hence would bring up resentment amoung the public,
Will this make HMA messy? I guess no. How many understand this marriage act anyway. By this the law would reflect whats practised by the mojority in the society. One of the main reason why it was enacted.
What will happen to khaps after that. umm They can work on other social issues where law is irrelavant today like Dowry and mass education.
View's opposing Amendment make sense to me but I think there are some other things involved which should be considered as well.
Why the marriage between incests in not recognised?? I guess because societies think its immoral and wants to discourage it. Same as gay unions. (Dont read between lines and assume I approve/disapprove Gay thing).
Hinduism Views on incest : Hinduism speaks of incest in highly abhorrent terms. Hindus were greatly fearful of the bad effects of incest and thus practice strict rules of both endogamy and exogamy within castes (Varna in Hinduism) but not in the same family tree (gotra) or bloodline (Pravara). Marriages within the gotra ("swagotra" marriages) are banned under the rule of exogamy in the traditional matrimonial system.
What the law say: Hindu Marriage Act
3. Definitions. In this Act, unless the context otherwise
requires,-
(a). the expressions "custom" and "usage" signify anyrule
which, having been continuously and uniformly observed for a
long time, has obtained the force of law among Hindus in any
local area, tribe, community, group or family:
4. Overiding effect of Act.
4. Overiding effect of Act. Save as otherwise expressly provided
in this Act,-
(a) any text rule or interpretation of Hindu law or any
custom or usage as part of that law in force immediately
before
(Hindu marriages.)
the commencement of this Act shall cease to have effect with
respect to any matter for which provision is made in this
Act;
(b) any other law in force immediately before the
commencement of this Act shall cease to have effect in so far
as it is inconsistent with any of the provisions contained in
this Act.
The following condition need to be satisfied for a hindu marriage.
the parties are not within the degrees of prohibited relationship unless the custom or usage governing
each of them permits of a marriage between the two;
The below is banned in HMA
HMA, section 2(b) of the Special Marriage Act prohibited martial relationships in half or uterine blood as well as full blood, illegitimate and legitimate blood and by adoption.
The full blood and half blood means two persons said to be related to each other by full blood when they are descended from a common ancestor by the same wife and by half blood, when descended from a common ancestor but by different wives. By uterine blood, it means two persons said to be related to each other by uterine blood when they are descended from a common ancestress but by different husbands
The Marriage ACT isnt clear on the same Gotra thing. But it claim to recognise the 'customs' of various tribes. Unless this is clearly mentioned in the law it would be of no use as hard to challenge. The law which isnt clear will get changed sooner or later. Sooner is better than later in this case.
I guess HMA was made by Nehrus and Ambedkars who has little knowldge of these things. Lol
Note: I am no Law expert and would request other members in this field to correct me on my understanding of the law.
This 'Samgotra' thing is widely followed by other North indians as well.
I guess what people are demanding is to recongnise this custom of Jats and other North Indians by the Govt and has this clearly mentioned in the Law. The communities who wants to be governed by it can get themselves clearly mentioned. Thats it. No big deal. But the only problem is what will happen to the people who are Jats/Other North indians and want to marry in the same Gotras??
I guess they should be given an option to go ahead by anything similar to the following:
Announce in a public newspaper or in village Panchayat that they no longer follow this particular tribe's or whatever customs to whom they belong. Villagers will decide whether they want to talk to them or not.
Now marriage in same village is bit tricky. Though followed by majority there are some jats who dont follow it.
Some people say Khaps are becoming irrevalant these days. I agree to them to an extent. Also many baagad areas doesnt have khaps. But once these same Gotra thing is recongnised by the Govt, Khaps shouldnt/wouldnt interfere there after in any marriage and I guess thats a good thing for the society as it would be governed directly by the law not by any other body.
By this are we going forward or backward?? I guess it would be a positive change as everything would be taken care of by the Law of the land. We cant afford these things to be governed by leaders of Khaps anymore as that can conflict law of the Land legally which overrides anyway and hence would bring up resentment amoung the public,
Will this make HMA messy? I guess no. How many understand this marriage act anyway. By this the law would reflect whats practised by the mojority in the society. One of the main reason why it was enacted.
What will happen to khaps after that. umm They can work on other social issues where law is irrelavant today like Dowry and mass education.
jitendershooda
New member
Best Replies. To the point and explainatory.
Now the discussion has squeezed to
a) Same Gotra/ Maa ka gotra marriage prohibition. Here one thing to be noted is that we are only saying same gotra here and there. Some people will have different opinions when Maa ka gotra comes under discussion. Means if the couple is not from village or gohand of Maa.
So be specific when you are asking for Same gotra prohibition to be protected by law, whether it also includes Maa ka gotra too.
b) Same village marriage. Here ambiguity is there. As this is not followed by all and also will depend upon size of village, number of gotras in village etc. When to determine a village has become grown enough to allow such marriages.
So it needs to be decided whether this should be covered by law or just social practice.
Kapil if you have watched yesterdays debate on NDTV. They are even stating social boycott to be barbarian. How will you get away with it?
I have already mentioned that the representatives of khaps like Mr. Baljit Malik yesterday and others in previous debate are not well prepared before hand. On the other hand Jagmati Sangwan and Media (Both have Communist background) are very well planned and linked too. They have a joint motto to acheive and thus some learned guys should be there from Khaps side to represent their point.
a) There are n number of medical researches done which may be quoted.
b) Also they can openly demand a seminar of Genetic Doctors all over the country.
c) They can ask for an open survey of this area of all LOCAL residents (Not refugees and muslims) and see what is the precentage support to this tradition of Same Gotra prohibition.
Also I have a great desire to ask these Media guys like Abhigyan Prakash and Pachauri ... Do they understand what is Gotra System of this area? A debate is where they are having knowledge of customs and main terms so that they put sensibly their remarks. I got agitated many a times by their behaviour.
Look there were 87% in favour of HMA amendment in their polls. Daily they quote it nearly 10 times in between programme to send an sms to their number and the poll have gone upto this level. Yesterday they never quoted it again. What a bull ****, they are not ready to accept the opinion poll of people governed by themselves.
Some guys in previous posts mentioned what is the need to convince others. It is not a matter of convincing others .... its a matter of debate and if we are prepared before hand we will keep their mouth shut.
Now the discussion has squeezed to
a) Same Gotra/ Maa ka gotra marriage prohibition. Here one thing to be noted is that we are only saying same gotra here and there. Some people will have different opinions when Maa ka gotra comes under discussion. Means if the couple is not from village or gohand of Maa.
So be specific when you are asking for Same gotra prohibition to be protected by law, whether it also includes Maa ka gotra too.
b) Same village marriage. Here ambiguity is there. As this is not followed by all and also will depend upon size of village, number of gotras in village etc. When to determine a village has become grown enough to allow such marriages.
So it needs to be decided whether this should be covered by law or just social practice.
Kapil if you have watched yesterdays debate on NDTV. They are even stating social boycott to be barbarian. How will you get away with it?
I have already mentioned that the representatives of khaps like Mr. Baljit Malik yesterday and others in previous debate are not well prepared before hand. On the other hand Jagmati Sangwan and Media (Both have Communist background) are very well planned and linked too. They have a joint motto to acheive and thus some learned guys should be there from Khaps side to represent their point.
a) There are n number of medical researches done which may be quoted.
b) Also they can openly demand a seminar of Genetic Doctors all over the country.
c) They can ask for an open survey of this area of all LOCAL residents (Not refugees and muslims) and see what is the precentage support to this tradition of Same Gotra prohibition.
Also I have a great desire to ask these Media guys like Abhigyan Prakash and Pachauri ... Do they understand what is Gotra System of this area? A debate is where they are having knowledge of customs and main terms so that they put sensibly their remarks. I got agitated many a times by their behaviour.
Look there were 87% in favour of HMA amendment in their polls. Daily they quote it nearly 10 times in between programme to send an sms to their number and the poll have gone upto this level. Yesterday they never quoted it again. What a bull ****, they are not ready to accept the opinion poll of people governed by themselves.
Some guys in previous posts mentioned what is the need to convince others. It is not a matter of convincing others .... its a matter of debate and if we are prepared before hand we will keep their mouth shut.
samarkadian
Active member
Where is ''projected future of Haryana'' - Deepender and his ''Chankya'' father Bhupinder? Why are they silent over this?
Because they havent got instruction from "the Lady" yet. The lady is still struggling hard to understand " who is khap" and what is this gotra thing.
" Hooda so many issues in matrimonio" WTH?? Let me get back to you on this gentiluomo."
brahmtewatia
Active member
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brahmtewatia
Active member
objection kapil !
your argument quoting example of 3rd/4th generation makes sense, taking cognizance of the fact that gotra match at level 4 is far better than that at level 3. that being said you are forgetting one point here... the case/issue under argument is at level 1 hence you cannot debunk the entire argument by simply saying "unscientific". it is scientific and very much scientific nd this happens to be the strongest case for JAT's to bring the issue at fore for possible amendment(s).
the whole issue became contentious since the gotra match was at level 1. had it been at any other level (even dadi's)... त इतना खडदू कोणी होता.
though, i do agree that the demand asking for change in hindu marriage act doesn't make much relevance, taking into the account the bigger perspective nd the complexities involved.
your argument quoting example of 3rd/4th generation makes sense, taking cognizance of the fact that gotra match at level 4 is far better than that at level 3. that being said you are forgetting one point here... the case/issue under argument is at level 1 hence you cannot debunk the entire argument by simply saying "unscientific". it is scientific and very much scientific nd this happens to be the strongest case for JAT's to bring the issue at fore for possible amendment(s).
the whole issue became contentious since the gotra match was at level 1. had it been at any other level (even dadi's)... त इतना खडदू कोणी होता.
though, i do agree that the demand asking for change in hindu marriage act doesn't make much relevance, taking into the account the bigger perspective nd the complexities involved.
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I have not seen the debate. And I am not taking the position of anyone who is calling the customs or traditions as barbarian. They are just wild idiots who are ever so ready to show off their "liberal" and "progressive" thinking. I am not sure if they even understand their own logic. If you ask them about their stand on tribals, I guess most of them would say that the culture, customs and traditions of tribals need to be protected, blah blah blah!!
NDTV or any media house is not the sole representor of people's opinion. I won't care 2 hoots about what they have to say. But if the point is that the image of the community is being unfairly tarnished, then articulate and intelligent members of community should participate in the debates and put forth their point of view. But if that community member can't unequivocally condemn murders or other instances of use of force, then don't expect public opinion to improve.
Union law minister Veerappa Moily on Tuesday ruled out amending the Hindu Marriage Act in order to accommodate the Khap Panchayat's demands. "We have suggested to amend the simple marriage act, not the Hindu Marriage Act,” he added.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...to-accommodate-Khaps-/articleshow/5916953.cms
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...to-accommodate-Khaps-/articleshow/5916953.cms
ravichaudhary
New member
In media Everyone says that it's barbaric decision of khap panchayat. But i don't think so. I am not in fevour of killink anyone. But everyone should follow the rule of their sociaty. We respect our judicial system, but we also respect our social system. Judicial system is for our socity , not for spoil the socity.
This issue is related to JAT community. Who don't know about Jat sacrifies for our country. our community saves our country in all battles. There are too many freedomfighter related to our community like 'saheed Bhagat Singh' and 'sir Chotu ram '. Who don't know about thair sacrifies for their country ? They all respect and follow this social system. Then how can you say that this system is not goood ? Why we are following british rule still ? We must change our rules to save our social system.
rules are not permited to hurt immotions of our community. Some uncevilised persons(other community) are opposing this system. They are blind follower of western culture. They never contribute in our army and other public services. they are opposing only good things. My suggestion for them is, do your work and don't interrupt in other community matter.
All people are saying that 'khap panchayat' don't respect rules, but they respest. So they are demanding to change bad rules. They don't want to brake rules again and agani. If gourment doesn't hear us then it's not our defeat . Its a big defeat of gourment. Because we are belong to a brave community and born to win. The community which saves many time india, can save itself also. There are too many problems in india . Concentrate yourself on that problems.
"JAI JAT"
This issue is related to JAT community. Who don't know about Jat sacrifies for our country. our community saves our country in all battles. There are too many freedomfighter related to our community like 'saheed Bhagat Singh' and 'sir Chotu ram '. Who don't know about thair sacrifies for their country ? They all respect and follow this social system. Then how can you say that this system is not goood ? Why we are following british rule still ? We must change our rules to save our social system.
rules are not permited to hurt immotions of our community. Some uncevilised persons(other community) are opposing this system. They are blind follower of western culture. They never contribute in our army and other public services. they are opposing only good things. My suggestion for them is, do your work and don't interrupt in other community matter.
All people are saying that 'khap panchayat' don't respect rules, but they respest. So they are demanding to change bad rules. They don't want to brake rules again and agani. If gourment doesn't hear us then it's not our defeat . Its a big defeat of gourment. Because we are belong to a brave community and born to win. The community which saves many time india, can save itself also. There are too many problems in india . Concentrate yourself on that problems.
"JAI JAT"
Brahm,
I don't think you understood my argument. The levels I talked about was of DIRECT ancestors and not of gotras. Let me give an example. When a person P marries, usually 3 gotras are left- X(own), Y(mother's) and Z(grandmother's). But there would be lots of people in X, Y and Z gotras with whom P would NOT share a COMMON DIRECT ANCESTOR (have a grip here-->you need to look strictly at the family line) in the previous 3 generations. Still P excludes everyone from X, Y and Z. However, P would technically be okay to marry someone born in the family line of his nani's parents, who has a gotra W. There is a common ancestor here at level 3. Ditto, he can marry someone born in the family line of his dadi's maternal grandparents (level 4 common ancestor), who has a gotra V. So P leaves 20-30 generations of X, Y and Z gotras; but still has an ancestor overlap at 3rd or 4th generation in gotras V and W. Scientifically speaking, gotras don't matter, family line matters. By the way, this is just to argue about the science part of the debate. Level 3 is more than sufficient to significantly reduce the probability of genetic disorders.
And yes, it was much more scientific for those who would have started the tradition as gotras were small then and probably all ancestors were within 3/4 levels. So you can say that the beginners were scientific/rational but the followers are just following blindly. Not sure if the beginners knew of the genetic impact, but there must have been other logistical and practical reasons for maintaining a "safe distance" that are valid even now for 3/4 levels. So the ancestors definitely had LOGIC. And the current generations have FAITH (probably true for most customs in most communities).
ravichaudhary
New member
At this time silence is better, and creates more options.
Let us be patient
Ravi Chaudhary
jitendershooda
New member
There is a programme on NDTV hindi. 8 to 9 PM daily. Title - Abhgyan Prakash ke sath ya kuch aisa hi.
Is programme mein Abhigyan ek number deta hai jispe log sms karte hein aur ye poll results wo poore programme mein dikhate rahete hein. Kal wale programme mein question that Poll ka ... Kya Hindu Marriage Act mein sanshodhan hona chahiye?
Aur result that 87% - Yes
13% No
Try google ... you may find this episodes clip.
brahmtewatia
Active member
thanks kapil for explaining your point of argument... surely that makes sense.
Too much mathematics for me. But i think they (we) dont marry where they know they have a common DIRECT ANCESTOR be it from any level from any side. But sometime we dont know about say what happened at level 10. But yes u are right its more about what we believe rathar than what science say.