12 points by MahaPanchayat - How much you agree?

[cooljat]

.

Interesting find :

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...space-identity-online/articleshow/5924015.cms

TOI featured Jatland and particular this very thread in the article .. moreover also featured Kapil's started poll/thread about Identity Jat or Indian first ..

Thanks RK Uncle for the link !


Cheers
Jit

 

[jitendershooda]

View attachment 10021

Even as the government proposes tougher laws against honour killings sanctioned by khap panchayats, a survey carried out by Hindustan Times in Haryana shows most people are against same gotra (sub-caste) marriages.
The survey shows as many as 77 per cent of the respondents do not support same gotra marriages. The survey was carried out in Chandigarh, Rohtak, Jind, Bhiwani and Kurukshetra.

Nothing too dramatic but I was wondering who these rest 23% are: Muslims, Pundits ,Haryjans or Neo-liberals(As Media house call them). Any idea Kirti and undy TV?????????


P.S. The Poll was conducted from a genaral sample of people(there is no reference that it was Jat exclusive) which may or may not include Muslims, Harijan etc who dont follow Gotra system. Moreover people were from cities only.

Vipin,

Good to see such a clear survey.

Here on JL also we have two surveys regarding the same topic. One is with 12 points for panchayats resolution. Today one of the Bengali have quoted it in ambigous way just to satisfy her soul. So why not have two threads here on JL to leave no confusion regarding atleast we Jats opinion for others and us.

Could you please start two separate threads with following Polls (Could moderators please do the same) -

1) Do you support same gotra marriage?
YES
NO

2) Should the government amend the Hindu Marriage Act to Bar Same-Gotra marriages?
YES
NO

This will give a strong message.

 

[virj]

Yes thats a good idea as our JL forums are not only read but quoted by others. We should have a poll on these. Will do.

Cheers

 

[hemanthooda]

I second Jitu Bhai's Proposal!!!!

 

[jitendershooda]

Well, what will happen if someone (or a group of ppl) from northern India file a PIL that HMA- exception of allowing marriage between cousins should be extended to him/them also (for some reasons) ??

In principle, court should extend the courtesy to them as they are also asking for exception NOT a restriction. No??

Can anyone (law person @JL) shed some light on this: if it is possible to ask for such an exception? and if court can NOT entertain individuals request (only a community can ask for such exceptions) then how many people will define a community?
and if HMA is non-amendable? [that would be sad scenario, as south Indians got a fair deal courtesy to south Indian HMA-boss in 1955]

Excellent discussion.

What if a community organise extensive survey or may be even polling (likewise it happens in many of the countries to decide for a common thing) and the mendate comes to be above 80% community is in favour of the restriction?

I don't think so. Correlation doesn't imply causation. Same gotra marriages are legal AND some people are having them. Doesn't mean that since same gotra marriages are legal, hence some people are having them. An act being legal is not an encouragement; but it being illegal is a discouragement.

I have seen, first hand, boys of one paana flirting with girls of another paana of same village.

I disagree here. I have seen, first hand, cousins flirting but we havent seen any case of cousin marriages or eloping because

a) It is socially discouraged
b) They knew law will not favour that relationship

People involved in such relationship of same gotra etc. bye-pass the first obstruction because they get 100% favour of the lack of second.

If its all about ones freedom then why we are restricting a couple to Express Love in public place. In present day lives people get very less moments to share, and still we restrict them to express their feelings even when both are mutually agreed. Am sure many of them are not doing because its illegal .. discouragement. If we legalise kissing in public I am sure you will see more and more cases. So being Legal is definitely a Promotion/encouragement to that activity.

 

[jitendershooda]

Sikh Marriage Act ready for Cabinet nod

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100513/main7.htm

If the assurances given by Union Law Minister Veerappa Moily to a delegation of the Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Management Committee on Wednesday are any indication, the draft of the Sikh Marriage Act is ready for ratification by the Union Cabinet. After clearance by the Cabinet, it will be introduced in Parliament at its next session.
Once passed, the Sikh Marriage Act will meet a long-standing demand of the community that has been fighting for an amendment to the Anand Marriage Act passed by the British in 1909. Under the Act, there will be a special provision for the registration of marriages performed under Sikh religious rights. Interestingly, Pakistan had taken the lead over India by adopting the amended Anand Marriage Act a couple of years ago.

 

[sunillathwal]

Sikh Marriage Act ready for Cabinet nod

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100513/main7.htm

If the assurances given by Union Law Minister Veerappa Moily to a delegation of the Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Management Committee on Wednesday are any indication, the draft of the Sikh Marriage Act is ready for ratification by the Union Cabinet. After clearance by the Cabinet, it will be introduced in Parliament at its next session.
Once passed, the Sikh Marriage Act will meet a long-standing demand of the community that has been fighting for an amendment to the Anand Marriage Act passed by the British in 1909. Under the Act, there will be a special provision for the registration of marriages performed under Sikh religious rights. Interestingly, Pakistan had taken the lead over India by adopting the amended Anand Marriage Act a couple of years ago.

It will be quite interesting to see what are the 'new amendments' in Sikh Marriage Act!!

 

[sanjaymalik]

Well, what will happen if someone (or a group of ppl) from northern India file a PIL that HMA- exception of allowing marriage between cousins should be extended to him/them also (for some reasons) ??

In principle, court should extend the courtesy to them as they are also asking for exception NOT a restriction. No??

Can anyone (law person @JL) shed some light on this: if it is possible to ask for such an exception? and if court can NOT entertain individuals request (only a community can ask for such exceptions) then how many people will define a community?
and if HMA is non-amendable? [that would be sad scenario, as south Indians got a fair deal courtesy to south Indian HMA-boss in 1955]

Sunil first of all not able to understand your question, whether you are asking to file PIL for getting exception for performing marriage in same gotra or for restrictions for marriage in the same gotra.
As per my under standing and knowledge of law a PIL can not be filed for restrictions on marriage in same gotra or even for amendment. PIL what is a PIL. It already enshrined in Article 32 of Our Constitution and recognised by our Judicial system in 80'. Any person or group of persons can file a PIL in High Court or directly in Supreme Court on violation his or their pconstitutional rights or any any injury to his persons or group of persons, for filling of PIL as per various judicial pronouncement following conditions sholuld be satisfied:-
-There is a personal injury or injury to a disadvantaged section of the population for whom access to legal justice system is difficult,
» The person bringing the action has sufficient interest to maintain an action of public injury,
» The injury must have arisen because of breach of public duty or violation of the Constitution or of the law,
-It must seek enforcement of such public duty and observance of the constitutional law or legal provisions.

So if there is violation of constitutional right and legal right recognised by any law, of any individual or groups of individuals ,then PIL can be entertained.so its a remedy exended for the destitute or to disadvantaged section of society those have less or no acess to the judical system.it talk about the violation of constitutional and legal rights recognised by law.

In view of this PIL can not be file for restrictions for same gotra marriage.

On the contrary it will violat the constitutional right of the couples by impositioning such restrictions.However they can go for PIL in that situation.
Only remedy is to amend HMA,it is amendable any Act can be amend by the legislature simple introducing a bill for amendment.

 

[kapdal]

I disagree here. I have seen, first hand, cousins flirting but we havent seen any case of cousin marriages or eloping because

a) It is socially discouraged
b) They knew law will not favour that relationship

People involved in such relationship of same gotra etc. bye-pass the first obstruction because they get 100% favour of the lack of second.

I doubt they even think of the law. Don't see how their mind would even reach that stage. The shame factor within the family and society is too big to reach the serious consideration stage. Just think about it. If it reaches the serious consideration stage, is the law that big a deal? There are options within the law- get converted and then the hindu marriage act is not applicable on you. There are mavericks who have done that, eg. Chand.

 

[vijay123]

I agree with Kapil here. Most of us educated people dont understand law in that minute details. I read about HMA and Simple Marriage Act here on the site only. I came to know about marriage among cousins in South India only few years back from a South Indian friend. Even if these people know that law wont favor their relationship, they will run away and try to have a live in relationship. It is a old saying that love is blind.

I doubt they even think of the law. Don't see how their mind would even reach that stage. The shame factor within the family and society is too big to reach the serious consideration stage. Just think about it. If it reaches the serious consideration stage, is the law that big a deal? There are options within the law- get converted and then the hindu marriage act is not applicable on you. There are mavericks who have done that, eg. Chand.

 

[vijay123]

Read this: This is happening in Chautala village and people are asking for support from Chautala for ban on same gotra marriage. See the irony.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-defiance-in-khapland/articleshow/5854612.cms

Rakesh and Saroj are lucky they live in Chautala. The village is defiant about the khap diktat against marrying within the same gotra. Here, the whole village has celebrated such weddings. Chautala has 200 such couples. That’s 400 people who might have been hounded in another Haryana village. How did this happen? Why is Chautala so brave?

“We have never cowed down before the khaps,” says Rampartap, 71, a Chautala resident who married Lichhma, his neighbour, 40 years ago. Lichhma says marrying within the same village is a boon. “It beats me why marrying within my village could be a crime. I could visit my parents whenever I wished.”

 

[singhvp]

I completely endorse the views expressed by Shri Kapil Dalal and Shri Vijay Kumar (Vijay123) above.

The potential scourge of inter-clan marriages which has been haunting the gladiators of Jat Community seems to have been borne out of a ‘trust deficit’ between them and their children. A good parenting might preempt the perceived danger. Just one incident is not symptomatic of a contagious disease which might engulf our coming generations - properly inoculated by the requisite dose of knowledge about our traditions, whatsoever. I am sure if parents set a good example of morality and healthy social behavior, children follow suit and can never betray their confidence. Therefore, our perceived panic smacks of our low confidence and mutual distrust vis-à-vis our children.

We need to devote the rest of our energy and resources in developmental activities and confidence building between the hardliners and the much berated ‘neo-liberal’ peaceniks if we are sincere and serious to see the community flourishing like many of our counterparts, while leaving aside the peripheral and ephemeral issues of marriages etc. By castigating each other on this current issue we are simply widening the cracks, thereby making a big dark hole in which the entire community might disappear eventually.

 

[cooljat]

.

I seriously doubt if these guys are Jat !

Read this: This is happening in Chautala village and people are asking for support from Chautala for ban on same gotra marriage. See the irony.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-defiance-in-khapland/articleshow/5854612.cms

Rakesh and Saroj are lucky they live in Chautala. The village is defiant about the khap diktat against marrying within the same gotra. Here, the whole village has celebrated such weddings. Chautala has 200 such couples. That’s 400 people who might have been hounded in another Haryana village. How did this happen? Why is Chautala so brave?

“We have never cowed down before the khaps,” says Rampartap, 71, a Chautala resident who married Lichhma, his neighbour, 40 years ago. Lichhma says marrying within the same village is a boon. “It beats me why marrying within my village could be a crime. I could visit my parents whenever I wished.”

 

[rakeshsehrawat]

.

I seriously doubt if these guys are Jat !

It was land of Devilal where people from many villages start living but still they avoid gotras

 

[annch]

Agree with Rakesh. It may not be that people living in the same village would also have the same gotra. If the marriages actually are within same gotra, it is surprising why these villages were not ostracized from the Jat community by the Mahasabhas/ mahapanchayats all this while....

What about the mavericks, that Kapil quoted, who would convert to a religion where their choices are acceptable? Would an amendment in HMA help? Or Khaps would seek a ban on these kind of conversion?

So, what is this jat/ khap movement regarding amendment in HMA, etc all about? Improvement in our social structure/ customs, economic upliftment or just a fight for an identity, a display of power/ influence?

Read this: This is happening in Chautala village and people are asking for support from Chautala for ban on same gotra marriage. See the irony.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-defiance-in-khapland/articleshow/5854612.cms

Rakesh and Saroj are lucky they live in Chautala. The village is defiant about the khap diktat against marrying within the same gotra. Here, the whole village has celebrated such weddings. Chautala has 200 such couples. That’s 400 people who might have been hounded in another Haryana village. How did this happen? Why is Chautala so brave?

“We have never cowed down before the khaps,” says Rampartap, 71, a Chautala resident who married Lichhma, his neighbour, 40 years ago. Lichhma says marrying within the same village is a boon. “It beats me why marrying within my village could be a crime. I could visit my parents whenever I wished.”

 

[vijay]

Agree with Rakesh. It may not be that people living in the same village would also have the same gotra. If the marriages actually are within same gotra, it is surprising why these villages were not ostracized from the Jat community by the Mahasabhas/ mahapanchayats all this while....

Nobody recognize and validate these Khap Panchayats except a few districts of Haryana. The problem deemed to be intense just because that the most of the people debating here are from those few districts of Haryana. In other areas, Jat people hardly talk or discuss this issue.

 

[virj]

Vipin,

Good to see such a clear survey.

Here on JL also we have two surveys regarding the same topic. One is with 12 points for panchayats resolution. Today one of the Bengali have quoted it in ambigous way just to satisfy her soul. So why not have two threads here on JL to leave no confusion regarding atleast we Jats opinion for others and us.

Could you please start two separate threads with following Polls (Could moderators please do the same) -

1) Do you support same gotra marriage?
YES
NO

2) Should the government amend the Hindu Marriage Act to Bar Same-Gotra marriages?
YES
NO

This will give a strong message.

Bhai Jeet yo ke shayapa pa diya. Sare mere geli pad ge us thread ne le ke

 

[virj]

Rakesh and Saroj are lucky they live in Chautala. The village is defiant about the khap diktat against marrying within the same gotra. Here, the whole village has celebrated such weddings. Chautala has 200 such couples. That’s 400 people who might have been hounded in another Haryana village. How did this happen? Why is Chautala so brave?
”

Could someone please confirm whether this is true or not (though I doubt its again misrepresented) ?? How could they use Same Gotra??? Do they have any idea what they are talking about ?? Once confirmed I gonna call TOI today.

 

[singhvp]

Nobody recognize and validate these Khap Panchayats except a few districts of Haryana. The problem deemed to be intense just because that the most of the people debating here are from those few districts of Haryana. In other areas, Jat people hardly talk or discuss this issue.

Vijay, the real heores of our community are those toiling Jats who are living in villages, sweating and working it out in the fields for their survival, without having any facility of internet gossip. They are grappling with their own priorities and are least interested in the Khap politics. I doubt majority of them even knew the names of their Khap leaders and even the nuances of HMA until recently. It is only we, the paper tigers, who are batting for them, unsolicited. These poor farmers need our support and guidance to come out of the quagmire of deprivation. They need better education for their children, better houses, more water in the canals, modernization of canals, drainage facilities, dispensaries, roads, anti-dowry movement etc.

 

[rakeshsehrawat]

Vijay, the real heores of our community are those toiling Jats who are living in villages, sweating and working it out in the fields for their survival, without having any facility of internet gossip. They are grappling with their own priorities and are least interested in the Khap politics. I doubt majority of them even knew the names of their Khap leaders and even the nuances of HMA until recently. It is only we, the paper tigers, who are batting for them, unsolicited. These poor farmers need our support and guidance to come out of the quagmire of deprivation. They need better education for their children, better houses, more water in the canals, modernization of canals, drainage facilities, dispensaries, roads, anti-dowry movement etc.

I am sorry to quote a senior member but i don't think you know anything about jat community. You can be a khap leader if you have ability to speak truth infront of thousands of people. People here are doubting Khaps until now have anyone heard about them or any khap leader came to them asking for any leader?
If they are not recognised why these leader support them Jindal is a baniya and cancelled his flight on their one call? Reason is simple this is society THE JAT SOCIETY. You are not the society infact you are away from your roots.This is not something about Chautalas or Hoodas this is something big this is about survival of jats. Muslims have their own rules South Indians given exception in constitution then why jats were not given any special clause. Constitution have many clauses seprately for many states nad many castes. Reason is that mostly jats were illitrate and don't care about these type of things and they have never thougt that this society would become so much polluted that they have to ask govt. to take care of them.Jats being farmer was not dependent on anyone and other people like Baniya Nai kumhar etc. were dependent on him for their livelyhood. This created a sense of proud in him and can be found in his DNA now.But time has changed shortage of lands lack of education sent jat on backfoot where he is fighting for his own identity. Even the DNA of jat become polluted people don't like to be called jats.
Baaki so bato ki ek baat 50 aadmi saare jato ka bhavisya tay nahi kar sakte Fortune 500 mein register Jindal jab apni flight cancel karke jab jato ke peeche khada ho gaya to 15-15 hazar ki naukri karne wale aur ye kehne wale ki aisa nahi hoga ki baat mein kitna dam ho sakta hai. Itihas gavah hai jat ne jab bhi sir uthaya to uske aage tikne wala koi nahi tha aur na hi hoga. Aur umeed hai ki hamara DNA aur jyada pollute nahi hoga. Agli mahapanchayat ka intezar hai.

Sorry Jatlanders if anyone's sentiments got hurt.