narenderkharb
Active member
Kaya main aisa kah raha hun ?
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Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions
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Kaya main aisa kah raha hun ?
narenderkharb
Active member
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I did not quite write that it was negative throughout as Dev also got called asur -
"Some Vedic dieties that are regarded as Dev were also Asur in Rig Ved. Agni is asur (III.3.4, IV.2.4, X.15.1) as it emits smoke, Varun is asur (I.24.14, II.27.10) as he is the lord of the night, Rudr is asur too (I.122.1, II.1.6) as he is related to smoldering fire."
It is quite possible that the stark difference was not evident in the beginning as it did later but how it got developed into one in later texts and also got associated with people is a good question.
It is quite possible that what I wrote is not right as some shlok can easily disprove that. I was going by one book and it made sense to me.
Regarding your question on why it was taken on proudly by somebody, I do not know. You have to study ancient texts to understand what transpired.
Regarding this statement -
Answer is simple... this was not a negative identity or some symbolism or a word created by simply adding A to Soor to denote a negative meaning.
Since asur is provided in Rigved as part of text then I am sure, it was there for a reason and the meaning then is same as we use it now. I have provided many more vilom words above and not just asur.
narenderkharb
Active member
I have read these books and I agree with PL Bhargva's assertion that Asur in Rigved was used for higest of Gods .It was not developed as a negative thought as had it been a negative word then it should have never found a place in Zandevesta for highest and purest of Gods.Again this indicate that movement is not from east to west as Devas despite a positive meaning in east are regarded as negative in Iran .We can correct our assumptions in reference to these observations or keep believing what we believe already.
Ranbir said:
nrao said:
Rajpal ji,
The basis of what I wrote is what is provided in Rig-Ved and I also provided the source above. Kindly read up on RigVed VII 18.5-17. That in my view, is the Rigvedic evidence and the historic relevance of this event. For a quick understanding, please go through Wikepedia article, even though there are confusing meaning, they do provide a gist of the encounter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ten_Kings
It appears that only Aryans were prepared to fight each other (unlike what Ranbir wrote above, no Asur is mentioned). What appears is that Sudas, was heavily outnumbered and outmatched in this 'encounter' and he came out victorious. The encounter took place in middle of Parusni (presently river Ravi). The two groups were in boats or ships moving in opposite direction (one going upstream) and one going downstream (Sudas). The ship/boat moving upstream sank due to some kind of 'tide or flash flood'. This particular incident probably ended the encounter. Hence the stuti to thank and praise Indr for the help by Sudas.
I also think that unlike Dev-Asur encounters which may seem to be symbolic, this encounter was a real incident involving real people and real tribes that exist even today. Every historian and Vedic expert agrees to this event. However, how the events unfolded and what happened is based on how different people interpret the shloks. What I provided is one interpretation, based on Bhagwan Singh's book.
For a little exercise, try not to call it as dashrajanyudh or battle of ten kings but something like Parusni ki ghatna or an encounter on Parusni, it will definitely convey different meaning. Words like Yudh/battle prepare ones mind to expect something like that. Similarly, think of Indus valley civilization as Saraswati-Sindhu civilization and the geographical center will immediately move to a different area then what the mind is conditioned.
Anyways, once again, I am willing to change what I wrote above if better translation or explanation is provided.
Agar aap Rigved padhenge to shayad aap samajh jayenge ki ho kya raha hai. Bharat mein bahut se Dharm utpan hue jinka vajood Vedic dharm ki kaat karna tha. Udharanarth Bodh, Jaini, Carvaka, Zarathushtra ke dharm jaan boojh kar vedic dharm ke viprit thhe. Isme jyada sanshay nahin hai ki Iran ke arya Devon ko kharab maante hain aur asur ko acha. Bharata mein ab iska ulta hai.
Aur yeh mat bhooliye ki Bogaz Kuy mein bhi bharatiya aryon ke bhagwanon ko dev maana gaya hai. Aur rahi baat Shauur shabd ki to iska lena dena insaan ke acharan se hi hai aur yahi paribhasha hamare desh ke rishiyon ne bhi prayog ki thi aryon aur dasyu ke vishay mein.
To aap baataiye ki aap kehna kya chha rahe hain? Aap kaunse inxcription ki baat kar rahe hain aur yeh kab likha gaye?
Can you produce Bhargavas quotes and more importantly also cite if he is quoting anything from RigVed or is he just quoting other scholar. Although, I did write above that Dev are called Asur also, so does not seem like a big issue here. Here is that quote again -
"Some Vedic dieties that are regarded as Dev were also Asur in Rig Ved. Agni is asur (III.3.4, IV.2.4, X.15.1) as it emits smoke, Varun is asur (I.24.14, II.27.10) as he is the lord of the night, Rudr is asur too (I.122.1, II.1.6) as he is related to smoldering fire."
Not sure if they are highest of Gods or lowest of Gods but Dev are also referred to as asur for sure, so once again no issues there.
Zend Avesta, it seems corresponds to later parts of Rig-Ved and lot more similar to later Ved (like Yajur, Atharav and Sam) so that context needs to be seen.
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Yeh theek lagta hai ki naye dharm Vedic dharm ke viprit thee. Dev and asur acquiring different meaning in different places could be seen in this light of new ideologies opposing Vedic dharm.
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prashantacmet
New member
Very knowledgeable thread...Though it still remains a mystery whether movement was from east to west or west to east! N rao and Romar ji on one side and rajpal ji and narender bhai on other...good discussion going on... waiting for the conclusion
#362 should help you.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Friend,
I am really grateful to you and also to all the other friends on Jatland Forum for showing their interest in the discussion.
I take the opportunity to explain that there is nothing like one or two persons on one side or the others on other side on the issue.
Fact is, we are discussing the issue with open mind just to find out the truth about the original abode of the Aryans when tnhere was no division among them as 'Indo-Aryans','Iranian-Aryans' and 'Indo-European Aryans.'
If someone gives a satisfactory evidence acceptable to pass all tests of historical research methodology, we are very much open to accept the same.
But gossips, floating baseless ideas on origin of various words[ for example Asura] or dependence on the borrowed links of other sites, it seems, would further complicate the real issues of academic interest and ultimately result into creating more hazy picture on the way to reaching the destination i.e. abode of the 'Aryans'.
I have not heard from the participants a word on the earlier posted views suggesting common ancestor of Devas and Asuras. If someone has other view he is welcome to share it here otherwise it may be presumed that all participants agree that Kashyap was the father of both the Devas and Asuras.
Thanks
drrajpalsingh
New member
Dost,
Yadi hum Kashyap se Deva aur Asur dono groups ki utapati ko maan lete hain to yah bahas ka vishya suljh jata hai ki baad ke granthon mein kiske baare mein kya kaha gaya hain.
Asura's represented senior branch of the 'Aryans' and it seems became rulers which was resented to by their junior brethern belonging to Devas.
There does not come the religion in between them at the primary stage.
Priestly class seems to have gathered influence in political matters at later stages as the traditions recorded in our old literature show.
Dhanyavad.
drrajpalsingh
New member
drrajpalsingh
New member
Baat un dinon ki ho rahi hai jab vedas aur anya dharama astitava mein hi nahin aye the aur Aryans ke naam se aaj jane jate Bhasha samuh ke log Kisi Ek sthan per rahate the !
Humen us sthan ki khoj ki taraf khule mana se chalana hoga, tabhi smasya ka taraksangat nirakaran ho sakata hai !
drrajpalsingh
New member
For those who are interested to read the full text of the book under reference , here it is:
P.L. Bhargava, India in the Vedic Age, Upper India Publishing house, Lucknow, (1956).
drrajpalsingh
New member
Dost,
Aap ne Rigaveda ko padha hoga kripya yah batlane ka kast kijiyega ki kya Rigveda mein Jain aur Buddha Dharam ke baare mein varanan milta hai.
Dhanyavad !!!
drrajpalsingh
New member
The link referred by you has first of all warned us to note that :
This article may be too technical for most readers to understand. Please help improve this article to make it understandable to non-experts, without removing the technical details. The talk page may contain suggestions. <small>(November 2012)</small>
drrajpalsingh
New member
Jaisi drishti vaisi sristi !!
Vase sodh per discussion ke doran majak karane ka samaye hi kahan milta hai.
Maine sidha swal puchha tha :
...........................................Dashratha, Haryanakshpa aur Indra ke naam se jude wartanton per bhi lage haath apna faisla dene ki kripa kijiyega ki woh bhi kya arya hi aaps mein ankh micholi khel rahe the.
Ise majak kah kar aapne aap ko aur mujhe logon ki nazar mein mazak ka patar nahin banane deven, yahi aapse karbadh prarthana hai !
drrajpalsingh
New member
The word inscription has very wide connotation in itself and includes also in itself any type of written evidence on something whether earthen wares, stones, leather, leafs, metal pieces and so on. For details of the ancient history of Iran search out good books and then come out with questions.
Aap kin inscription ki baat kar rahe hain, specific kijiyega !
Secondly, could you share with us when the Rigveda got its final shape as we find it today.
{Notwithstanding the fact that it carries information of the much more earlier times}.
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