Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[drrajpalsingh]

So far the discussion has moved back from later sources to actual Rig Ved. Lot of material has been presented. First set was a group of secondary evidence, as seen in #542:
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=334157&viewfull=1#post334157

Luckily, I was able to find the small book by Dr Budh Prakash and will deal with it in the next few days/weeks to see if he really has anything new to present or if he is repeating the popular theory during his time. The specific edition of his book that I have is 1976, and is published from Lahore. It is clear from his book that he is a big supporter of external invasion theory unlike Bhargava who is an internal invasionist.

Then we will come to specific shlok from Rig Ved, which are presented as dev-asur dwand and not movement of people from alleged homeland of central asia.

Welcome Shri Rao; it is hoped that it would be an interesting and fruitful discussion on the issue of Aryana in the days ahead.

 

[romar]

While discussing the issue of chronology, S B Roy has undertaken an indepth study of sources of historical research and basing his findings on the main pillars of his chronology, he has averred that the entire Veda could be conveniently divided into three broad chronological divisions as follows:

Early Vedic Age : Dynasty Number= D.N. 1 to D.N. 62 i.e.the hymns (if any) composed by Rishis having these dynastic numbers will belong to the division now called Early Vedic Age.

Middle Vedic Age : D.N. 63 to D.N. 68.

Late Vedic Age : D.N. 69 to D.N. 96.

He has thoroughly examined the Middle Vedic Age to find out the locale of of the Vedic People from the hymns themselves of Rig Veda. To solve the problem he relies on the hymns of Shyavashwa Atreya who belonged to D.N. 64 because the Rishi has extensively described the rivers crossed by Atreya Storm troopers.

Shyavashwa Atrey [R.V. 5 (52,53,61] mentions several rivers. They are :

R.V. V.53.9 mentions the rivers Rasa, Anitabha, Kumbha, Kruma, Sindhu and Saryu. Rasa has been indentified a the river Jaxtartes (Syr Dariya) in Turan i.e. South Russia. Kubha [Kabul River] and Krumu [Kurram River] are western tributaries of the river Indus and situated in Modern Afghanistan i.e. the Vedic Gandhara. Sindhu is the Indian River Indus.

Saryu in the context of the present enumeration, is probably the Iranian river Horayu and the river Saryu of eastern U P.

R.V. 5.52.9 mentions Parushni, the river Ravi of the Punjab.

Gomati [RV 5.61] has been identified as the river Gomal of Baluchistan by Pargiter and Keith.

Yamuna [RV 5.52.17 ] appears to be the modern Yamuna, marking perhaps the eastern limit of Aryana.

S.B. Roy in Aryan invasion and the Rigveda: A chronological reappraisal, pp165-176 writes on the basis of the above identification of the Rivers mentioned in the Rig Veda, "The habitat of the Vedic people when Shyavashwa [D.N.64] composed the hymn was, therefore, Turan, Iranm Gandhara [Afghanistan] and the Indian region, and perhaps, India up to the river Yamuna." He goes on to add that at this point of time, "the whole of Aryana--from Zagrus Mountains in the west to Jamuna in the east, and from Turan in the north to the Arabian seas in the south was the Vedic Land. The later nadi-stuti R.V. X.75 by Sindhukshita, the sib (?) of Priyamedha, describes the rivers of Punjab and also Ganga, and therefore, it could be said that when Shyavashwa Atrey [D.N. 64] wrote, the invasion was not complete but it was in the offing: when Sindhukhsita [D.N. 68?] wrote his hymn the Aryans had reached and settled in Ganga. To be more specific, the Vedic people were still mainly on the west of Indus when D.N. 64 composed in the hymn i.e. it was the age of transition into India."

Before proceeding further, the comments of the participants supported by sources in the discussion are invited on this hypothesis of S.B. Roy. After thourough discussion when this issue is settled in the form of making a workable hypothesis then, we shall proceed to next step.


------------for the dates/chronology of the Dynasty No. 64 to 68 of the rulers and the Rishis.....please wait a while.......

Roy ji ka hawala dete hue pehle aapne yeh likha:

"S.B. Roy on identification of the 'locale' of the battle ground where Divodasa dynasty contested for supremacy against their rivals says:

''The whole of the Aryana [from Zagrus to Yamuna and from Turan to Arab(ian) sea] was the habitat of Vedic people in this fateful period [2000-1900 BC] of the world history.

...Srinjaya, the great grandson of Divodasa was the eponymous name of the Srinjayas who have been identified as the Zarenkas or Zaranjes of the Helmund region. The Divadasa dynasty therefore hailed from the 'Horahvaiti' region of Iran.''

Iske jawab mein yeh prastut kiya gaya tha:
"Dikkat hai ki Roy ji ne divodas ke janam ke varnan ko andekha kar diya hai aur unhe Iran pahuncha diya hai. Rigved ki 6.61.1 shloka mein Divodas ke janam ka varnan hai aur Saraswati nadi ke kinare per janma likha gaya hai.

Iran bhartiya aryon ki janam bhumi nahi ho sakti is vishe mein tathya pehle prastut kiye ja chuke hain. Unki kaat kisi ne prastut nahin ki hai. Divodas ki lambi ladai dasyuon ke raja Shambar se hui. Kisi ek samay Dasyuon ko bharat se desh nikala de diya gaya. Bharatiya arya in dasyuon ko aryan nahi maante thhe. Iran ke arya log in dasyuon ko arya maante thhe. Saaf jahir he ki in dasyuon bharat se bahar kadh diya tha."

To aap bataiye ki yeh kathan "The Divadasa dynasty therefore hailed from the 'Horahvaiti' region of Iran" kaise maana ja sakta hai?

Caspian sea wali baat phir uth rahi hai. Rigved mein koi jikar nahi parantu buddhijivi aam admi ko ghutti pila rahe hain.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

........................................................................

................... Divodas ki lambi ladai dasyuon ke raja Shambar se hui. Kisi ek samay Dasyuon ko bharat se desh nikala de diya gaya. Bharatiya arya in dasyuon ko aryan nahi maante thhe. Iran ke arya log in dasyuon ko arya maante thhe. Saaf jahir he ki in dasyuon bharat se bahar kadh diya tha.".....................

Friend,

Thank you for sharing a very important finding of your research.

Kindly support your statement with source/ reference, please,

This startling finding of yours, if supported by evidence, could prove helpful in not only establishing original abode of the Aryas once for all times to come but also illuminating dark corners of the history of many countries of Asia.

It would be very kind of you if you could also let us know when was this action to turn out the Dasyus was taken, what was their relation with those Aryas who pushed them out of India and where did they go from here?

And last but not the least, when the last battle at the banks of Ravi was contested between these people from various parts of Asia?

Thanks.

 

[romar]

Friend,

Thank you for sharing a very important finding of your research.

Kindly support your statement with source/ reference, please,

...

Apko Divodas ke reference mein kya galti lag rahi hai? Shloka ki Sankhya di gayi hai. Rigved mein jo baat di gayi hai voh Roy ji ki baat ka khandan karti hai. Aap ka is Divodas ke vishay per kya tippani hai?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Apko Divodas ke reference mein kya galti lag rahi hai? Shloka ki Sankhya di gayi hai. Rigved mein jo baat di gayi hai voh Roy ji ki baat ka khandan karti hai. Aap ka is Divodas ke vishay per kya tippani hai?

Friend,

I have neither supported Roy's interpretation nor contradicted yours so far because we are discussing the issue with open mind to understand the problem by taking different views/angles/studies under critical analysis. That is the method of objective study of any problem.

This is so because at present I am trying to understand all the aspects of the problem being discussed on the basis of available and accessible sources of information both primary and secondary. After arriving at some convincing conclusion, I will post it .

This must be borne in mind that all tools of research methodology taken together are used to clinch the issue and none can overlook their commutative results.

In the meantime your reply to questions posted in post 563 above are still awaited.

Thanks

 

[romar]

Friend,

I have neither supported Roy's interpretation nor contradicted yours so far because we are discussing the issue with open mind to understand the problem by taking different views/angles/studies under critical analysis. That is the method of objective study of any problem.

...

Yeh avashyak hai ki aage badhne ke liye ek ek kar ke cheejo ka nivaran kiya jave. Udharanarth Roy ji ka Divodas ko Irani batana ek abhut badi baat hai. Rigved ke shlok ka is baat ko khandan karna us se bhi badi baat hai. Jab tak is vishay ka samadhan nahi niklega aage kisi baat per vichaar karna tark sangat nahi hai.

 

[nrao]

Welcome Shri Rao; it is hoped that it would be an interesting and fruitful discussion on the issue of Aryana in the days ahead.

You are welcome. Can you clarify where did you pick up the word 'Aryana'? It seems to be a much later concoction or even invention.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

You are welcome. Can you clarify where did you pick up the word 'Aryana'? It seems to be a much later concoction or even invention.

Friend,

Good question.

I do not distinctly remember its first use by me. It has simply been used by me to describe the region where ancient Aryans lived.

If it is later concoction or even invention, it can be substituted by more appropriate word to describe the region where ancient Aryans lived.

What, according to your study, word be used to denote the region?

Thanks

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Aap Puranon ke aadhar per Rigved ko andekha kar rahe hain. Isko kaise tark sangat maane? Puran Rigved ke kai hajaar saal baad likhe gaye.

It is not a sin to use complementary evidence to substantiate/supplement or cross check Vedic or any other evidence from other available sources.

Kindly share what according to you are the dates of the composition of the Rigveda and the Puranas.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

An Appeal For kind attention of the participants in the debate on this thread:

For putting any misgiving or apprehension of the participants, it is to submit that I am neither a votary of migration/invasion theory nor against India or any other place under the sun as the original home of the 'Aryans'. I have been making my humble contribution to bring before the participants various available points of views/theories/studies on the issue so that those could be critically analysed by using ALL HISTORICAL TOOLS AND METHODOLOGIES to arrive at some logical conclusion of the issue.

It would be appreciated that the issue belonging to proto-historic times does not provide all the sources to facilitate easy discussion and illuminate all the points being raised in one go. The need of the hour is to patiently discuss the issues involved using different sources at the command of the participants as none has all the sources in his/her possession.

Thus the team work, not one-upmanship would yield results if we undertake the study in an objective manner, avoiding as much as possible, the subjective approach.

 

[nrao]

Friend,

Good question.

I do not distinctly remember its first use by me. It has simply been used by me to describe the region where ancient Aryans lived.

If it is later concoction or even invention, it can be substituted by more appropriate word to describe the region where ancient Aryans lived.

What, according to your study, word be used to denote the region?

Thanks

I have already provided the name much earlier while replying to Prashant. The name where early Aryans lived was what most of us know as Saraswathi-Sindhu or Harappan civilization. That region was both the early abode before they were called Aryans as well as where composition of Ved took place.

Meanwhile, here is something I wrote regarding Bhandarkar's views over 5 years back, although it was in another context and completely unrelated to current topic (regarding origin of Chauhans). That time also I found that he used to run to central asia for the origin of Chauhans, which is so erroneous such that his views are outdated from the start (in this context he related Khazars to Gujjars which has no basis whatsoever):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/4482

I will come to Budh Prakash's book and views soon.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

What light the study of Vedas shed on this question?

Swami Dayananda Sarswati and Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak, the two eminent Vedic Scholars of the Yore, did not support the Region pointed to by you as the original home of the Aryans.

Sawamiji considered Tibet as their original home and Tilak founded Arctic home of Aryans theory.

Therefore, I have tried to bring to the notice of the participants various vedic reference used by the later historians so that the same could be cross checked and also seen if true interpretation of the verses has been presented by the scholars or not.

A few shlokas quoted by S B Roy,to delineate the last important fight lasting [ between D.N. 64 to D.N. 68] for about one hundred years, have been posted. Kindly critically analyse the same and extend help to settle the issues involved.

Thereafter, we can take up earlier or later part of history.

No blanket one answer can be given without supported by sources to solve this problem.

Yes, relevant constructive questions do serve the purpose of discussion.

If we move step by step to take us individual incidents to settle their chronology and locale and, then take up another one, results could be arrived at and this seemingly insurmountable problem, perhaps, could be solved in a manageable time limit.

Kindly cooperate to solve this 100 year history issue first by concentrating study of this important aspect of our proto-history from different angles and arriving at convincing results.

Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

The participants in the discussion may visit
[h=1]Thread: Genetic Analysis of my DNA[/h]
To update themselves on the issue of migration/immigration.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

It is reported at p. 65 of H.C. Roychowdhury's Pre-history of Ancient India that 'Dashratha' is mentioned in the Rigvedic hymn 1.126.4.

Etymologically 'Dashratha' means ten chariots. Has it any other meaning or has it been used as a proper name ? This knot needs solution.

As regards, the hymn'a author is concerned, it is composed by Kakshivan Ausija, and Partiger after a detailed analysis has shown that the author was a junior contemporary of royal D.N. 63, Divodasa with Rishi D.N. 65.

S B Roy [p.31] avers: "What is of crucial importance is the fact that Dashratha has a dynastic number of 64 while Kakshivan has a dynastic number of 65. It follows that Kakshivan was a junior contemporary of Dashratha and further that the hymn R.V. 1.126 was a contemporary eye-witness report of the event."

Does there exist a clue in Indian traditions/ literature to verify that Dashratha may or may not have had participated in the hundred year long drawn Devasura War in favour of Divodasa against the Danava king Shambhara, the son of Kulitara [or not]?

If any shred of information comes up from any source, this could solve a good deal of the problem of the chronology of Indian dynasties of Rishis and Royal personage of the middle Vedic Age.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

It would be good if someone elaborates the fights/battles of Dashratha against the Danavas from the help of sources/ literature so that the issue referred to in the above post [574] could be settled.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Rajpal ji


Here we are entering in to finer details of aryan saga where I don't agree with Mishra ji in his observation.

It was not like Asura or Daitya came earlier and settled here ...It was an earlier Caucasian race( racial brothers of later vedic people)that came and settled in India represented by Nagas etc....Differentiation between Asura and Deva was on eastern Iranian lands and more symbolic in nature .It can be broadly attributed to divison among rishi families (mainly due to rivalery and animoisty among them) later Zarathustra provided moral framework to it .

Thanks friend for your enlightening caution and good post !

 

[nrao]

It is reported at p. 65 of H.C. Roychowdhury's Pre-history of Ancient India that 'Dashratha' is mentioned in the Rigvedic hymn 1.126.4.

Etymologically 'Dashratha' means ten chariots. Has it any other meaning or has it been used as a proper name ? This knot needs solution.

As regards, the hymn'a author is concerned, it is composed by Kakshivan Ausija, and Partiger after a detailed analysis has shown that the author was a junior contemporary of royal D.N. 63, Divodasa with Rishi D.N. 65.

S B Roy [p.31] avers: "What is of crucial importance is the fact that Dashratha has a dynastic number of 64 while Kakshivan has a dynastic number of 65. It follows that Kakshivan was a junior contemporary of Dashratha and further that the hymn R.V. 1.126 was a contemporary eye-witness report of the event."

Does there exist a clue in Indian traditions/ literature to verify that Dashratha may or may not have had participated in the hundred year long drawn Devasura War in favour of Divodasa against the Danava king Shambhara, the son of Kulitara [or not]?

If any shred of information comes up from any source, this could solve a good deal of the problem of the chronology of Indian dynasties of Rishis and Royal personage of the middle Vedic Age.

Rajpal ji,

Simple question: kya aap Rigved ke shlokon ka anuvad khud kar sakte hain ya nahin? Nothing against putting views of other authors which are extremely helpful also.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Rajpal ji,

Simple question: kya aap Rigved ke shlokon ka anuvad khud kar sakte hain ya nahin? Nothing against putting views of other authors which are extremely helpful also.

Friend,

I do not claim to master Vedic Sanskrit, so my forthright answer to your simple question is : NO.

That is why, I am inviting you and others to join and contribute in understanding the interpretations of Vedic hymns given by other authors.

Till the time, the quotes are not contradicted by someone, I have to put reliance upon the translations/transliteration and meanings given in the books available on the topic.

Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

While working out a chronological framework of Indian Protohistory, S.B. Roy has stated that Manu Vaisasvata [D.N. 1] was born in 3167 B.c.; Raghu [D.N. 62] born in 2069; Divodasa [DN 63]; Aja Shambaa, Ibbisin;Emissum [all contemporaries] : One hundred years Dev-Asura war begins. [page.63];

He goes on to add that Dasaratha, Ravana II and Indrota were contemporaries and so were Rama and Soma. The significance of this period 2033 B.C. to c.2000 B.C. lies in the fact that Rakshasa empire fell at that time.

Under Dynasty No. 66 [1997 B.C.] Srinjaya; Hushrava;and, D.N. 67 Chyavana [1979 B.C.] fierce battle continued leading to fall of Danavas. Other important feature of the period is the contemporary appearance of the names of Shaktiand Prashara Vashisthas, Kaksshivan Ausija; Zarathustra.

D.N. 68 (1961 B C.) Sudasa II, Vistaspa, Vishwamitra IV appear and Dasa Rajana battle is contested.
------------
[For details, read, S.B. Roy, Vedic Chronology, Journal of the Andhra Research Society, Hyderabad, Vol. XXXIII, pp.75-81.

And S.B. Roy, Chronological infrastructure of the Indian Protohistory, Journal of the Bihar Research Society, Vol. LVIII, pp.44-78.

S. B. Roy, Ancient India, A Chronological Study, Institute of Chronology, Delhi.]

It is for the scholars either to accept this identification of chronological framework of Middle Vedic Age in Indian Protohistory i.e. D.N. 64 to D.N. 68 or to come out with more plausible alternate to it.

 

[romar]

Till the time, the quotes are not contradicted by someone, I have to put reliance upon the translations/transliteration and meanings given in the books available on the topic.

Thanks.

Aap ke dwara Shri Roy ka kathan ki Divodas dynasty Iran ki thhi ka Rigved ke shlok se khandan kiya ja chuka hai. Aap aur kis contradiction ki baat kar rahe hain?

PGW ka aryan logon se koi lena dena nahi hai yeh bhi saabit kiya ja chuka hai.

Rigved me ladai mein bhaag lene wale Caspian sea se aaye thhe ya ladai Caspian sea ke chor tak ladi gayi Rigved mein kahin nahi likha hai. Phir bhi baram baram yeh tathya aise kaha ja raha hai jaise sach ho. Kya karan hai?