Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[nrao]

Friend,

I do not claim to master Vedic Sanskrit, so my forthright answer to your simple question is : NO.

That is why, I am inviting you and others to join and contribute in understanding the interpretations of Vedic hymns given by other authors.

Till the time, the quotes are not contradicted by someone, I have to put reliance upon the translations/transliteration and meanings given in the books available on the topic.

Thanks.

Thanks for the reply. I think we really need a master of Sanskrit among our midst. Nobody, I know here has that mastery. I am not sure of Ranbir's credentials. I had a good conversation with Dr Rana, who I was shocked to learn is not allowed to write here at all. His account his blocked. This is most egregious mistake by this forum till now.

I suggest that his privileges should be fully restored so that we learn from him. So far it is hit in the dark, although few things are clear.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Aap ke dwara Shri Roy ka kathan ki Divodas dynasty Iran ki thhi ka Rigved ke shlok se khandan kiya ja chuka hai. Aap aur kis contradiction ki baat kar rahe hain?

PGW ka aryan logon se koi lena dena nahi hai yeh bhi saabit kiya ja chuka hai.

Rigved me ladai mein bhaag lene wale Caspian sea se aaye thhe ya ladai Caspian sea ke chor tak ladi gayi Rigved mein kahin nahi likha hai. Phir bhi baram baram yeh tathya aise kaha ja raha hai jaise sach ho. Kya karan hai?

In view of the fact that you are not going to quote any reference in support of your quotes, no comment on these posts is the best comment.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Rigveda hymns and verses related to Ten Kings Battle clearly mention that the people from out of present day Indian boundaries also participated in the Ten Kings Battle.

[For ready reference please, consult, study and understand the meaning of complete list of hymns and verses quoted by Shri S. B. Roy and posted by me under two posts in the previous pages of discussion on the issue,; more verses/hymns may or may not be there !]

None can deny the fact except those who do not want to accept the writ on the wall and want to put questions for the sake of questions !

 

[romar]

In view of the fact that you are not going to quote any reference in support of your quotes, no comment on these posts is the best comment.

Kamal ki baat kar rahen hain aap. Refernce to bahut din pehle diya ja chuka hai. Yeh alag baat hai ki aap maan na nahi chahte hain kyonki aapki central asia ki theory kuch khatai mein pad jaati hai.

Divodas ke janam ko lekar Rigved ka shloka jo Roy ke tark ka khandan karta hai:
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=333903&viewfull=1#post333903

Aur kai baar puuchne ke baad bhi aapne aaj tak Rigved ke ek bhi shloka ka hawala nahi diya jisme aapke dwara kahi hui Caspian sea ki baat jhalakti ho.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Continuing his study on the Chronological frame work of Indian Chronology, S. B. Ray quoting from the list prepared on the basis of Pargiter, Ancient Indian Historical Traditions of the Kings given at pp. 144-149 and of the rishis given at pp. 191-2 together, has drawn appropriate inferences.

He is of the view that the Vedic hymns were kept intact from the times that Shaunaka, Ashwalayana and Katyayana prepared their indexes (c.1320 B.C.): Not even half syllable has been changed in them and they are like a huge stone inscription (or tape records) kept intact since 1300 B.C."

S.B. Roy, Ancient India--a Chronological Study......, p.62 quoted in his book, Date of the Mahabharata Battle, p. 171.

Regarding the Middle Vedic Age [chronology about this period has already been quoted in above posts], Shri SB Roy has successfully established cross contacts for this period and has concluded his discussion by enumerating various conclusions as given on pp.187-191.

To sum up the gist of his finding is :

We thus get two cross contacts in Indian protohistory:

Ashoka and Antiok, the yona raja in c. 257 B.C.

Divodasa of Helmund, Indatu of Ur, Hashrava of North Iran and Emissum of Larsa provide cross contacts in c.2000--1970 B.C.

The chronological infrastructure of the protohistoric India should satisfy these two fixed points.

Comments supported by relevant sources are welcome on the issue.

Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

इयमददाद्रभसमृणच्युतं दिवोदासं वध्र्यश्वाय दाशुषे । या शश्वन्तमाचखादावसं पणिं ता ते दात्राणि तविषा सरस्वति ||

Incomplete Reference; needs name of the Veda, Mandal, hymn and verse to make it relevant.

What meaning this quote conveys, could anyone elaborate if it is about the birth of Divodasa on the banks of Saraswati or not.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

To sum up some of the salient features of the discussion so far, we can surmise that there are some scholars who are firmly of the view that the Aryans were indigenous people and there is not a shred of evidence to show that they came here from any other country. They are not ready to accept any other explanation.

But on the other hand, some scholars have tried to establish that Indian traditions itself supports the theory of the original home of Aryans in Central Asia to which they look upon as their Pitriloka or the home of ancestors. The philology, the archaeological remains, the traditions of other contemporary people and other allied data is also presented by them to cement their argument.

Then arises the questions concerning the time and the manner of Aryan entry into India. Max Muller had propounded c.1500 B.C. as approximate date of Aryan entry into India. Mortimer Wheeler gave the theory that the Aryans under the leadership of Indra destroyed the Harappan civilisation. This view was supported by Piggott. For several years this date remained as an article of faith among the scholars. But, during the last over six decades the latest research tools have been applied to study the proto-history and this chronology of Aryan entry has been demolished.

We have seen in the earlier posts that from time to time, the two earlier mentioned views among the scholars continue to come up with one or the other newer argument in their favour and the problem continues to attract attention of the scholars across the world.

The latest views based on the pains taking studies of S B Roy establishing cross contacts have been posted
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...ewer-discussions&p=334463&posted=1#post334463

which indicate the end of the Dev-Asura conflict and also provides cross contact.

Under the circumstances, it is up to the participants in the discussion to derive some plausible results to show the various phases of the entry of Aryans into India, if at all, they came from Central Asia or repudiate this conclusion to make us understand the factual position.

The discussion now moves to senior learned Jatland Forum members like L. R. Burdak, D.N. Deswal, Ravi Chaudhary, Narendera Kharb and also open for all the younger scholars for their final views/contribution to settle the issue.

Hope that they would come up with some workable conclusion of the issue of migration/immigration and also of the chronology of the Aryan issue.

Thanks.

 

[romar]

Incomplete Reference; needs name of the Veda, Mandal, hymn and verse to make it relevant.

What meaning this quote conveys, could anyone elaborate if it is about the birth of Divodasa on the banks of Saraswati or not.

Aap kuch theek sey nahi padh rahe hain kyonki aapke prashan ka uttar kai din pehle diya ja chuka hai: http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=333779&viewfull=1#post333779
"
Dikkat hai ki Roy ji ne divodas ke janam ke varnan ko andekha kar diya hai aur unhe Iran pahuncha diya hai. Rigved ki 6.61.1 shloka mein Divodas ke janam ka varnan hai aur Saraswati nadi ke kinare per janma likha gaya hai.

Iran bhartiya aryon ki janam bhumi nahi ho sakti is vishe mein tathya pehle prastut kiye ja chuke hain. Unki kaat kisi ne prastut nahin ki hai. Divodas ki lambi ladai dasyuon ke raja Shambar se hui. Kisi ek samay Dasyuon ko bharat se desh nikala de diya gaya. Bharatiya arya in dasyuon ko aryan nahi maante thhe. Iran ke arya log in dasyuon ko arya maante thhe. Saaf jahir he ki in dasyuon bharat se bahar kadh diya tha.
"

 

[romar]

He is of the view that the Vedic hymns were kept intact from the times that Shaunaka, Ashwalayana and Katyayana prepared their indexes (c.1320 B.C.): Not even half syllable has been changed in them and they are like a huge stone inscription (or tape records) kept intact since 1300 B.C."

Inhone to vigyan ko katai fail kar diya hai. Agar aap bhu garbh vaigyanikon ke addhyan se avgat honge to pata chalege ki 1320 BC ki tarikh Rigved ki rachna ke liye katai galat hai. Samajh mein nahi aa raha hai ki aap vaigyanikon ki av maan na kyon kar rahe hain.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Inhone to vigyan ko katai fail kar diya hai. Agar aap bhu garbh vaigyanikon ke addhyan se avgat honge to pata chalege ki 1320 BC ki tarikh Rigved ki rachna ke liye katai galat hai. Samajh mein nahi aa raha hai ki aap vaigyanikon ki av maan na kyon kar rahe hain.

Again, question for the sake of question.

Friend, First learn to understand the quote and then put questions, please.

To the best of my knowledge and belief there exists no Geological study on the final compilation of the Vedas, hence no question of the non-compliance of their findings.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

The scholars are requested to remember that the cause of research is too sacred to be jeoparadised by pre-conceived notions, howsoever ardently held by scholars.

 

[ravichaudhary]

Thanks for the reply. I think we really need a master of Sanskrit among our midst. Nobody, I know here has that mastery. I am not sure of Ranbir's credentials. I had a good conversation with Dr Rana, who I was shocked to learn is not allowed to write here at all. His account his blocked. This is most egregious mistake by this forum till now.

I suggest that his privileges should be fully restored so that we learn from him. So far it is hit in the dark, although few things are clear.

Dr Rana's account is not blocked from what I can see.

I have forwarded your observation to the List Master, for investigation and correction.

Ravi Chaudhary

 

[ravichaudhary]

There is a reason I have stopped participating on this and similar threads

If I was to put my moderator hat on, I would have stopped this discussion quite some time ago.

It is not contributing the objectives of the Jat- History section of this site

When this section started, and I had some little hand in it, the objectives were to

1) Collect information on Jat history
2) Create a venue where community could be educated in their history
3) Develop a coherent History of our people.
4) Educate our people
5) Have some fun doing it.


We have made some progress.

The History of our people is there more in the absence, than is evident in the writing in the conventional History text books.

However, anyone with a little education, will have come to the logical conclusion, that simply copying and pasting quotes from writers, who lived a century or so ago, who had no idea of the Jat history or culture, could not bring a coherent picture forward.

The posts for a few months, are of the ‘ copy and paste’ variety.

They do not add to our knowledge.

If I was to put my moderator hat on, I would ban these posts.

If some one make a quote, they should also write their OWN opinion, and reasons for making the quote, and showing why it is relevant.

If the poster does not have an opinion, some critical thoughts, they should not make the “ copy and paste “ post.

In simpler words, if you do not have anything that adds to our knowledge, do not post

This is quite separate from the post of people who are new, and simply unaware and uninformed about History in general or about the History of our people in particular.

These posts we welcome. The more participation we get the better. That is what this site/ Section is for.

What I would like to see stop, is the mindless ‘ copy and paste’ posts, and the endless circular justifications, of ‘ so and so said’, therefore it must be true.

Feedback please?

What would members like to see?

Ravi Chaudhary

 

[nrao]

There are, at least, five different approaches or methods to study the problem of chronology.

1. Literary method :Literary style method favoured by the philologists,; Analysis of proper names; and, dynastic method.

2. Archaeological method.

3. Radio-carbon Technique.

4. Astronomical Method; and

5. Cross contacts method.

Each of these methods have their merits and demerits, and, individual relative strengths and weaknesses; therefore, it is hazardous to put sole reliance on any one of these methods.

In other words, before arriving at a finally judgement, instead of giving exclusive reliance to any of them, all the methods must be given due weight.

I think your list is incomplete for what you are trying to accomplish here. Above list may be sufficient for any other times or place but not for when discussing Rig Vedic times and places. Maybe that is why I find your arguments not convincing till now.

The missing method is geological survey (which nowadays includes remote sensing), which is increasingly used to map and survey areas prior to excavations and also aid it later on, such as viewing dried up rivers which were once full flowing rivers, namely Saraswati and Drashdvati.

I had provided an example of such a method during Rakhigarhi discussion on Drashdvati (post #19 here):
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...-Heritage-list&p=329647&viewfull=1#post329647

 

[romar]

Again, question for the sake of question.

Friend, First learn to understand the quote and then put questions, please.

To the best of my knowledge and belief there exists no Geological study on the final compilation of the Vedas, hence no question of the non-compliance of their findings.

Apki baat sahi nahi hai. Sawal isliya pucha ja raha hai kyonki aap unka hawala de rahe hain jinhone kai dashak pehle likha tha aur unka anusandhan naye anusnadhan ne palat diya hai.

Jaisa ki pehle bhi kaha hai ki Saraswati nadi Rigved mein Samudra tak bina tute pahunchti thhi. Baad ki kitabon mein is nadi ka jagah jagah tootne ka vivaran hai jaise ki Mahabharat main ityadi. Vaigyanikon ne is baat ko sahi saabit kiya hai. Jin logon ko aap hawal dete hain ve in tathyon se jaankari nahi rakhte thhe.

http://www.gisdevelopment.net/application/archaeology/site/archs0001pf.htm



Doosri baat aap baar baar dohrate hain ki Rigved se reference nahi diya hai Divodas ke janam ke baare main Saraswati nadi ke paas. Kam se kam adha darjan baar to pichle kai dino mein reference diya ja chuka hai. Phir bhi aap baar baar yeh kyon kehte hain?

Aisa Royji na kya likha diya hai ki aap Rigved ke shlok ko andekha kar rahe hain? Yeh kaisi research hai?

 

[romar]

Feedback please?

What would members like to see?

Ravi Chaudhary

Aapki baat se isliye sahmat hoon ki kayi baar purani kitabon mein us samay tak simit anusandhan ki jaankari milti hai. Chunki vaigyanik aur anya buddhijivi nit naye shodh karte hain isliye nai samagri per dhyan dena bahut jaroori hai. Khas kar Rigved aur anya bhartiya granthon ki tarikh ko le kar. Bhu garbh vaigyanik in vishyon par bahut naye aayam khol rahe hain.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh
There are, at least, five different approaches or methods to study the problem of chronology.

1. Literary method :Literary style method favoured by the philologists,; Analysis of proper names; and, dynastic method.

2. Archaeological method.

3. Radio-carbon Technique.

4. Astronomical Method; and

5. Cross contacts method.

Each of these methods have their merits and demerits, and, individual relative strengths and weaknesses; therefore, it is hazardous to put sole reliance on any one of these methods.

In other words, before arriving at a finally judgement, instead of giving exclusive reliance to any of them, all the methods must be given due weight.

I think your list is incomplete for what you are trying to accomplish here. Above list may be sufficient for any other times or place but not for when discussing Rig Vedic times and places. Maybe that is why I find your arguments not convincing till now.

The missing method is geological survey (which nowadays includes remote sensing), which is increasingly used to map and survey areas prior to excavations and also aid it later on, such as viewing dried up rivers which were once full flowing rivers, namely Saraswati and Drashdvati.

I had provided an example of such a method during Rakhigarhi discussion on Drashdvati (post #19 here):
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...-Heritage-list&p=329647&viewfull=1#post329647

Welcome suggestion; You are absolutely correct to point out the need of adding more available methods/tools of research. You will appreciate that I had also kept the options open: ''There are, at least, five different approaches or methods to study the problem of chronology.

More suggestions and involvement is welcome .

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Apki baat sahi nahi hai. Sawal isliya pucha ja raha hai kyonki aap unka hawala de rahe hain jinhone kai dashak pehle likha tha aur unka anusandhan naye anusnadhan ne palat diya hai.

..............................

Before taking up any new research, one has to critically review the existing state of available research on the topic to be analysed. That object has been more or less achieved with contribution by all participants .

Now it is time for newer researchers to come forward with their own studies, of course, no ban on using researches of others after due acknowledgement of the quotes; even though some believe this to be a 'copy paste' method but it is universally accepted method of research which contains blend of old and newer research in the subjects of humanities and social sciences !

 

[prashantacmet]

There is a reason I have stopped participating on this and similar threads

If I was to put my moderator hat on, I would have stopped this discussion quite some time ago.

It is not contributing the objectives of the Jat- History section of this site

When this section started, and I had some little hand in it, the objectives were to

1) Collect information on Jat history
2) Create a venue where community could be educated in their history
3) Develop a coherent History of our people.
4) Educate our people
5) Have some fun doing it.


We have made some progress.

The History of our people is there more in the absence, than is evident in the writing in the conventional History text books.

However, anyone with a little education, will have come to the logical conclusion, that simply copying and pasting quotes from writers, who lived a century or so ago, who had no idea of the Jat history or culture, could not bring a coherent picture forward.

The posts for a few months, are of the ‘ copy and paste’ variety.

They do not add to our knowledge.

If I was to put my moderator hat on, I would ban these posts.

If some one make a quote, they should also write their OWN opinion, and reasons for making the quote, and showing why it is relevant.

If the poster does not have an opinion, some critical thoughts, they should not make the “ copy and paste “ post.

In simpler words, if you do not have anything that adds to our knowledge, do not post

This is quite separate from the post of people who are new, and simply unaware and uninformed about History in general or about the History of our people in particular.

These posts we welcome. The more participation we get the better. That is what this site/ Section is for.

What I would like to see stop, is the mindless ‘ copy and paste’ posts, and the endless circular justifications, of ‘ so and so said’, therefore it must be true.

Feedback please?

What would members like to see?

Ravi Chaudhary

Dear Sir,

I think that only very few people are having enormous knowledge on history others are just naive. Everone is not aware of or i should say a fair reach to history books, links and articles..so what is the harm if laymen like me also get few good reads, does n't matter it is a copy paste, link from internet or something else. I don't think that this section is dedicated not only for experts. I think Rajpal ji, ranveer ji , nrao and others are doing a very good debate and this is one of the most sensible threads in this section. So please let the guys continue

 

[drrajpalsingh]

In a recent seminar organised by us on "History and Historiography of Haryana'' in our college, a very interesting research paper was presented by a young scholar, Abhishek, Assistant Professor in Physics, entitled :Application of Nuclear Techniques in Historical Perspective.

I produce abstract of the same as under:

Abstract
Qualitative and quantitative investigations of metallic compositions of historical items such as coins, paintings, statues, potteries etc. using Nuclear Techniques can provide valuable information about the history, art, culture, economics and technology prevailing at that time The purpose of the present paper is to review status of particle induced X-ray emission (abbreviated PIXE) in historical perspective. The efforts made in the international arena and scenario will be highlighted in this paper.

If permited to copy paste the paper, it can, perhaps, induce the young scholars to more scientific research; and, also stimulate participants' interest in knowing the application of the latest tools of research in determining the dates/chronology and to checking authenticity in historical research.

Thanks.