Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[maddhan1979]

Friend,

Have you started in believing 'Bhoots' in this age of scientific developments and thinking !

Really speaking it shows that you have lost the basics of decency in discussion as the language expected in scholarly discussion is missing in this post.

Taunting words will take us no where near the solution of the problem being discussed. For complete information on 'Saraswati' named rivers [and goddesses too] in various parts of Indian subcontinent and Iran read some good literature and then post your reasoned views based on some quotation. None would agree to your claim that one and only one Sarasvati existed in the Universe; and coincidentally that too stands dried up.

Thanks.

Dear sir,
Chor ki dhari main tinka. It will be good if u do not reply to frustrated people who usually mislead you or your discussion. You have a learned approach, please continue on that. It will be really nice if, we can have some written and assimilated literature from you.

 

[nrao]

Yes is the shortest answer to you question.

!In Indian Traditions as recorded in literature, Devasura wars were contested at different time spans. For example, Leaving aside Indra led forces at many a time, it is found that in satyug Harishchandra, in Treta Vishnu and Dashraatha and Rama, and also Divodasa and his successors are said to have killed their opponent Danavas/Rakshasas.

Either you have not read my posts attentively or have knowingly tried to align me with one group or the other for the reasons best known to you.

Nether Roy nor I have committed wrong on the issue.

So far Roy's 100 year span of Devasura battle deals with only the dynasty of Divodasa and does not represent all the Aryan Devata led expeditions. Undoubtedly this long list of Deva generalisamo belonged to the same period of History and thus differnce in their dynastic date line suggests long drawn battles.

I stand by my statement so long as real, not imaginary, shortcoming is brought to notice. And so long none has done so.

Thanks

Perhaps, I was little over but I thought you are not giving credence to Rig Ved.

Rig ved mein eak shlok hai use dekhiye ki kahin aapko haravati ya uske aas paas ka kuch samaj mein aata hai:

ऋिग वेद २.२६.६

त्वं नो गोपा: पथिकृद्विचक्षणस्तव व्रताय मतिभिर्जरामहे ।
हस्पते यो नो अभि ह्वरो दधे स्वा तं मर्मर्तु दुच्छुना हरस्वती ॥

(last line - हमारे प्रति जो भी कुटिलता का व्यवहार करे, उसे उसकि ही दुर्बुद्धि नष्ट कर दे ।)

You, Br.haspati, are our protector and the guide of (our) path; (you are) the discerner (of all things); we worship with praises for your adoration; may his own precipitate malice involve him (in destruction) who practises deceit against us.

Reference in Rig-Ved to Harasvati, not contextually to any river whatsoever. Its meaning refers to deceive or kutiltah.

Aur usi mandal mein Saraswati naam ki nadi ka varnan.

ऋिग वेद २.४१.१६

अम्बितमे नदितमे देवितमे सरस्वति ।
अप्रशस्ता इव स्मसि प्रशस्तिमम्ब नसक्रधि ॥
(हे नदियों, मातृगणों, देवों मे सर्वश्रेषठ सरस्वति or Best Mother, best of Rivers, best of Goddesses, Sarasvati)

aur yeh Saraswati kahan thi, yamuna aur Satlej (Sutudri) ke beech:

इमं मे गग़ें यमुने सरस्वति सुतुद्रि स्तोम् सचता परुष्ण्या ।
असिक्न्या मरुवृद्धे वितस्तयार्जीकीये श्रृणुह्या सुषोमया ॥

Above 2 examples are for all those who always refer Saraswati to symbolism and Harasvati as a real river after which Sarasvati was named. Rig-Ved offers exactly the opposite. Saraswati is a river and Harasvati is symbolism (deceit or malice), not a river.

In addition, producing something from Ishwa on this debate (thanks to Ravi for pointing this out, who actually started a mini debate on this many years ago):

While we see that Saraswati finds mention in RV (above) as a river, it corresponding Haraswati is not referred to as river. So the natural question is when does Harasvati find mention as a river and where does this occur? It does occur, once again in later Vedic text. Harasvatya is also mentioned as a great motherly river (name) in the Atharvaveda Parishish.t.a, along with generic names for rivers, in this series: .....sindhavah, kulyâh, vahâh, urvyah, irâvatyah, pârvatyah, ojasvatyah, sarasvatyah, harasvatyah, ajirâh mâtarah nadînÃm. (AVParish. 48 Kautsavya Niruktanighan.tuh)

It seems that the word Harasvatî and its derivative Harasvatya is not identical with the word Sarasvatî in meaning, (or perhaps eventually not with that river?).

In addition, I would like to point to what Ravi just put on Jat History about this topic:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/7653

 

[romar]

Perhaps, I was little over but I thought you are not giving credence to Rig Ved.

Rig ved mein eak shlok hai use dekhiye ki kahin aapko haravati ya uske aas paas ka kuch samaj mein aata hai:

ऋिग वेद २.२६.६

त्वं नो गोपा: पथिकृद्विचक्षणस्तव व्रताय मतिभिर्जरामहे ।
हस्पते यो नो अभि ह्वरो दधे स्वा तं मर्मर्तु दुच्छुना हरस्वती ॥

(last line - हमारे प्रति जो भी कुटिलता का व्यवहार करे, उसे उसकि ही दुर्बुद्धि नष्ट कर दे ।)

You, Br.haspati, are our protector and the guide of (our) path; (you are) the discerner (of all things); we worship with praises for your adoration; may his own precipitate malice involve him (in destruction) who practises deceit against us.

Reference in Rig-Ved to Harasvati, not contextually to any river whatsoever. Its meaning refers to deceive or kutiltah.

Aur usi mandal mein Saraswati naam ki nadi ka varnan.

ऋिग वेद २.४१.१६

अम्बितमे नदितमे देवितमे सरस्वति ।
अप्रशस्ता इव स्मसि प्रशस्तिमम्ब नसक्रधि ॥
(हे नदियों, मातृगणों, देवों मे सर्वश्रेषठ सरस्वति or Best Mother, best of Rivers, best of Goddesses, Sarasvati)

aur yeh Saraswati kahan thi, yamuna aur Satlej (Sutudri) ke beech:

इमं मे गग़ें यमुने सरस्वति सुतुद्रि स्तोम् सचता परुष्ण्या ।
असिक्न्या मरुवृद्धे वितस्तयार्जीकीये श्रृणुह्या सुषोमया ॥

Above 2 examples are for all those who always refer Saraswati to symbolism and Harasvati as a real river after which Sarasvati was named. Rig-Ved offers exactly the opposite. Saraswati is a river and Harasvati is symbolism (deceit or malice), not a river.

In addition, producing something from Ishwa on this debate (thanks to Ravi for pointing this out, who actually started a mini debate on this many years ago):

While we see that Saraswati finds mention in RV (above) as a river, it corresponding Haraswati is not referred to as river. So the natural question is when does Harasvati find mention as a river and where does this occur? It does occur, once again in later Vedic text. Harasvatya is also mentioned as a great motherly river (name) in the Atharvaveda Parishish.t.a, along with generic names for rivers, in this series: .....sindhavah, kulyâh, vahâh, urvyah, irâvatyah, pârvatyah, ojasvatyah, sarasvatyah, harasvatyah, ajirâh mâtarah nadînÃm. (AVParish. 48 Kautsavya Niruktanighan.tuh)

It seems that the word Harasvatî and its derivative Harasvatya is not identical with the word Sarasvatî in meaning, (or perhaps eventually not with that river?).

In addition, I would like to point to what Ravi just put on Jat History about this topic:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/7653

Dhakad likha ha aapne! Dhanyavad Raviji ke lekh ke liye. Sanshay koi hai nahi ki iran ki nadi bharatiya saraswati kabhi thhi ya hogi. Yeh be buniyaad batein aryan invsion theory maan ne waale kar rahe hain.

 

[romar]

Wikipedia tells us - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraswati_river

The identification of the Vedic Sarasvati River with the Ghaggar-Hakra River was accepted by a number of scholars already in the 19th and early 20th century, including Christian Lassen,[1] Max Müller,[2] Marc Aurel Stein, C.F. Oldham[3] and Jane Macintosh,[4] while some more recent Vedic scholars (e.g. Kochhar 1999) believe the Helmand River of southern Afghanistan corresponds to the Sarasvati River.[5]

-------
Ref

1.^ Indische Alterthumskunde

2.^ Sacred Books of the East, 32, 60

3.^ Oldham 1893 pp.51–52

4.^ The ancient Indus Valley:new perspectives By Jane McIntosh

5.^ Kochhar, Rajesh, 'On the identity and chronology of the Ṛgvedic river Sarasvatī' in Archaeology and Language III; Artefacts, languages and texts, Routledge (1999), ISBN 0-415-10054-2.

Kochar katai bawala hai. Ek taraf to yeh kahwe ki arya bharat mein 1500 BC ke baad aaye aur uske viprit vaigyank yeh bata rahe hain ki 1900 BC mein saraswati nadi katai sookh gayi. To is bawale se koi yeh puuche ki iran se aane wale aryon ne ek sookhi hui nadi ka naam saraswati kyon dhar diya? Aur ni unhe koi mili thhi?

 

[romar]

...2-4 shlok, 5-7 link aur ek-aadh book padh ke aur bahas karke khamma-kha hawai kilee banan tai reserach ni homti..aur iss Jatland pe ghankhare issi category aale historian hai..saachi baat to yaa hai.... aur sahi mai kuch research karan ke liye itna hi dam chaiye jitna maine upper lika hai..na to khamma-kha thook bilote raho......

Baat do char aur das bees ki nahi hai. Baat aapke tark ke logic ki hai aur iske liye ek shlok bhi kaafi hai.

Kya aap Rigved ke nadi sukta shlok se wakif hai (10.75)? Ishe padh kar aapko in nadiyon ke sthan ke baare mein kya nishkarsh nikalta hai?

 

[prashantacmet]

Kochar katai bawala hai. Ek taraf to yeh kahwe ki arya bharat mein 1500 BC ke baad aaye aur uske viprit vaigyank yeh bata rahe hain ki 1900 BC mein saraswati nadi katai sookh gayi. To is bawale se koi yeh puuche ki iran se aane wale aryon ne ek sookhi hui nadi ka naam saraswati kyon dhar diya? Aur ni unhe koi mili thhi?

kaunsi sarswati sookh gayi thi??..eibbe to noey hi sansa hai ki rigvedic sarswati kaun si hai..as per kochhar saraswati declared in earlier Rig vedic mandala and saraswati declared in later mandalas are different.
.yeh sholk later mandals se hai : to isme jis sasrwati ka baat ho rahi hai wo yamuna aur satluz ke adjoining bahti hai par yeh wo sarswati nahi hai jo earlier mandal main hai..aur yeh hai aaz ki ghaggar
इमं मे गग़ें यमुने सरस्वति सुतुद्रि स्तोम् सचता परुष्ण्या ।
असिक्न्या मरुवृद्धे वितस्तयार्जीकीये श्रृणुह्या सुषोमया ॥

jo sasrwati earlier mandal main hai (neeche)- wo hai helmand of afghanistan (as per kochhar)..

अम्बितमे नदितमे देवितमे सरस्वति ।
अप्रशस्ता इव स्मसि प्रशस्तिमम्ब नसक्रधि ॥


par aapki ek baat main dum hai ki aryoun ke ek sookhi hui nadi ka naamkaran saraswati kyoun kiya..jabki wo bahut veg se bahti hui saraswati dekh ke aaye the

par uske alawa bhi kuch sensible points hai kochhar ke..1-1 karke sabki kaat karo jibbe banegi baat maamma!

 

[romar]

kaunsi sarswati sookh gayi thi??..eibbe to noey hi sansa hai ki rigvedic sarswati kaun si hai..as per kochhar saraswati declared in earlier Rig vedic mandala and saraswati declared in later mandalas are different.
.yeh sholk later mandals se hai : to isme jis sasrwati ka baat ho rahi hai wo yamuna aur satluz ke adjoining bahti hai par yeh wo sarswati nahi hai jo earlier mandal main hai..aur yeh hai aaz ki ghaggar
इमं मे गग़ें यमुने सरस्वति सुतुद्रि स्तोम् सचता परुष्ण्या ।
असिक्न्या मरुवृद्धे वितस्तयार्जीकीये श्रृणुह्या सुषोमया ॥

jo sasrwati earlier mandal main hai (neeche)- wo hai helmand of afghanistan (as per kochhar)..

अम्बितमे नदितमे देवितमे सरस्वति ।
अप्रशस्ता इव स्मसि प्रशस्तिमम्ब नसक्रधि ॥


par aapki ek baat main dum hai ki aryoun ke ek sookhi hui nadi ka naamkaran saraswati kyoun kiya..jabki wo bahut veg se bahti hui saraswati dekh ke aaye the

par uske alawa bhi kuch sensible points hai kochhar ke..1-1 karke sabki kaat karo jibbe banegi baat maamma!

Bhanje jara yeh bhi batla do ki kocchar uncle is shlok me अम्बितमे नदितमे देवितमे सरस्वति । kis bal buute per kah rahe hain ki yeh Saraswati helmand mein thhi?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

​Sarasvati controversy

The controversy on the issue of identification of the word Sarasvati is not new. The word means, for some people a Vedic 'goddess' and for others, it is a river 'abounding in lakes'.
C. Kunhan Raja has discussed the problem of identification in very detail. Referring to two Rigvedic verses [RV. X-17/8-9], he says that Sarasvati is "Essentially a goddess living in the other world along with departed fathers of the people."
He goes on to add: "Sarasvati is another river that has been described very prominently in the Rigveda. The River Sindhu is just mentioned in many places, and in the song about the rivers, there is a description of the river in a few verses. But in the case of the river Sarasvati, there are many songs, in the Rigveda. No one can deny that the Sarasvati is the most important river in the Rigveda. But my fear is that the river was known to the people only in tradition, as a past memory of glory. If the banks of the Sarasvati had been the real centre of Vedic culture, as is indicated by the prominence given to that river in the Rigveda, then one may wonder why the River Sindhu, far away to the west, has come next in importance after Sarasvati. Yamuna and Shutudri [Sutlej] should have been given that importance, being in the region nearest to the Sarasvati. If prominence in description is not a factor in deciding the relative importance of the regions, where the Vedic culture had been most strongly rooted, then Sarasvati cannot be accepted as the centre of Vedic culture just because of the prominence given to it in the descriptions."
Basing his argument on this line, he goes on to derive conclusion: "My own view is that prominence to the Sarsvati is due to its importance in tradition and that the prominence given to the Sindhu is due to the importance of the Sindhu region as the centre of culture at that time. Because the Sindhu was known to the people as a river, they sang bout the river as a phenomenon of Nature. Because the Sarasvati was known to the people only as a past memory and not as a fact of experience in their lif, that river was described as a goddess also, its feature as a phenomenon in of Nature being retained." ---------C Kunhan Raja, The Quintessence of the Rigveda, p. 66 and D.P. Sharma, Studies in the Proto-History, pp. 111-112.
Here it would be pertinent to raise a question on this statement of the learned author, if the conclusion that Sarasvati was known to the people only as a past memory then with which region is thispast memory connected. The answer perhaps lies in the fact that Sarasvati is connected with the Pitrs i.e. "the departed forefathers of the people as mentioned in the Rigvedic verses mentioned earlier (RV X.17.8-9), so our answer would be that this past memory of the Indian Aryans relates to the Sarasvati River in Iran which was called Harahavaiti and still flows as Arghandab. It seems probable that when one branch of the Ancient Aryans migrated from the banks of the Sarasvati/Harahvaiti in Iran and settled in India, they named the most important river of their new home after the name of the river of their former homeland.
It can be recalled that Harahvaiti figures in the Avesta as one of the 'good lands' [i.e. no. 10] also created by Ahura Mazda for the settlement of Aryans.

 

[romar]

​
Here it would be pertinent to raise a question on this statement of the learned author, if the conclusion that Sarasvati was known to the people only as a past memory then with which region is thispast memory connected. The answer perhaps lies in the fact that Sarasvati is connected with the Pitrs i.e. "the departed forefathers of the people as mentioned in the Rigvedic verses mentioned earlier (RV X.17.8-9), so our answer would be that this past memory of the Indian Aryans relates to the Sarasvati River in Iran which was called Harahavaiti and still flows as Arghandab. It seems probable that when one branch of the Ancient Aryans migrated from the banks of the Sarasvati/Harahvaiti in Iran and settled in India, they named the most important river of their new home after the name of the river of their former homeland.
It can be recalled that Harahvaiti figures in the Avesta as one of the 'good lands' [i.e. no. 10] also created by Ahura Mazda for the settlement of Aryans.

Kya aap mool stotron ke shodh mein vishwas nahi rakhte hain? Bura mat maaniyega ya ek jhooth ko sau bar dohrane se aap soch rahe hain ki sach maan liya jayega? Dason baar aap se kaha gaya ki saraswati nadi ka avesta se kuch pramaan dijiye. Aaj tak nahi diya.

Ab jara Ravi Chaudhary ke is lekh ko gaur se padhiye:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/7655

Isme yeh likha hai ki Avesta mein kahin Saraswati naam ki nadi nahin di gayi hai. Phir aap ek jooth ko baaram baar kyon dohra rahe hain?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

An extract from Wikipedia shows: "Sarasvatī is an exact cognate with Avestan Harax[SUP]v[/SUP]atī, perhaps[SUP][10][/SUP] originally referring to Arədvī Sūrā Anāhitā (modern Ardwisur Anahid), the Zoroastrian mythological world river, which would point to a common Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical Sáras-vat-ī river. In the younger Avesta, Harax[SUP]v[/SUP]atī is Arachosia, a region described to be rich in rivers, and its Old Persian cognate Harauvati, which gave its name to the present-day Hārūt River in Afghanistan, may have referred to the entire Helmand drainage basin (the center of Arachosia)." -------Reference:[10]. Lommel (1927); Lommel, Herman (1927), Die Yašts des Awesta, Göttingen-Leipzig: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht/JC Hinrichs ''

For a new figment of imagination of a scholar equating a new canal in Rajasthan to Vedic Saraswati, kindly read :

''There is a book available that goes further into the details of the Saravatiriver research, 'New Discoveries About Vedic Sarasvati' written by Dr RaviPrakash Arya. He is

the Chief Editor of Vedic Science journal.Kolkata (on Ma_gha Shukla Panchamiday: Sarasvati janma tithi celebration held in a big way on Feb. 17, 2002),Delhi,

Kalibangan, Mohangarh (Jaisalmer Dist.) where the river is flowing again:40 ft. wide, 12 ft. deep channel; the huge inaugural plaque there reads:Sarasvati mahanadi

ru_pa_ nahar." see Sarasvati/Recent Research on the Sarasvati River.htm


If such type of things continue to happen, it is a matter of time that tomorrow some Rajbaha in remote area would also get name of one or the other historic river.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

In the Vendidad, Fargard I of the Zend Avesta we have a description of Sixteen 'good lands' created by Ahur Mazda

and among them 6th relates to Haroyu identified as 'Sarayu' and 10 Harahvaiti 'Sarasvati'.

Further, we find that "the close resemblance between the language of Avesta and the Vedic language is so great that these may well be called ''two dialects of a more ancient language.'' This strong resemblance demands that the followers of Veda and Avesta must have lived together in one home at some period around 4000 B.C. This home and land is none other than the Oxus Basin--the vast basin of the Oxus river where the ancient Aryans lived and which included Balkh-Guzin, Bakhdim-Sriram, Bahlika, Bakhtran, Bakhl-Bemik, Balkh-Bami and Balkh-El-Hasna, and which is considered to be the ancient abode of the Aryans in all ancient mythologies of India and Iran. They lived together in the Bakhdi are of Northern Afghanistan about 2500 B.C.'' [See paper by Ahmad Ali Khozad 'Movement of peoples and Ideas from Prehistoric Times to the Seventh Century in and from Afghanistan' present in the First Asian History Conference held in Delhi.]

On the basis of the text of the Vedic Hymns and later literature up to Mahabharata, it is found that the Aryan tribes spread to the south, from

the Oxus basin and the north of the Hindu Kush range, and from there proceeded towards the heart of India along the banks of the river

Kabul[Kobha], Kurram[ Krumo] Gomal [Gomani]. Swat [Swastav], and Sindh [Sindhu], and from there they spread over the Punjab or Sapta-

Sindhu or Hapta-Hindu by doing this they reached the heart of the Indian sub continent and pushed the original inhabitants towards the south of the peninsula.

 

[romar]

Kya aap mool stotron ke shodh mein vishwas nahi rakhte hain? Bura mat maaniyega ya ek jhooth ko sau bar dohrane se aap soch rahe hain ki sach maan liya jayega? Dason baar aap se kaha gaya ki saraswati nadi ka avesta se kuch pramaan dijiye. Aaj tak nahi diya.

Ab jara Ravi Chaudhary ke is lekh ko gaur se padhiye:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/7655

Isme yeh likha hai ki Avesta mein kahin Saraswati naam ki nadi nahin di gayi hai. Phir aap ek jooth ko baaram baar kyon dohra rahe hain?

Upar likhe hue mein kya aapki samajh mein kuch nahi aaya ki jo aap nimanlikhit copy paste kar rahe hain?

An extract from Wikipedia shows: "Sarasvatī is an exact cognate with Avestan Harax[SUP]v[/SUP]atī, perhaps[SUP][10][/SUP] originally referring to Arədvī Sūrā Anāhitā (modern Ardwisur Anahid), the Zoroastrian mythological world river, which would point to a common Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical Sáras-vat-ī river.

Isme aapko kahin Iraniyon ke granth Avesta ke shloka ka jikr dikhai de raha hai jisme Saraswati nadi ke baare me likha hai?

Aap kyon ek bebuniyaad jooth ko baar baar doraha rahe hain?

Kyon Avesta ke shloka ka hawala nahi dete?

Kya ek imaandar insaan ki yeh pehchaan nahi ki jab uski galti bataiye jaaye to vah apni galti ko maane?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

To conclude the discussion, a few words.

References regarding Avesta on mention of Sarswati/Harahvaiti has already been given so many times earlier too. For latest post on the issue kindly see the first line of the posts no. 731; and read post 730 also.

For understanding the rules of interchange of Iranian 'H' into Skt. 'S' and other rules governing use of other common words, kindly log in

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/books/read12.html

For better understanding of the old forms of both the languages and their commonality and differences link is:

http://www.libraryindex.com/encyclopedia/pages/cpxktpb906/persia-language-persian-zend.html

Therefore, the issue if the Persian word used for 'Sarasvati' river is verifiable or not on the basis of the change of Skt. 'S' into old Persian 'H', according to the rules applied for inter-changeability of the sounds used in both languages stands resolved .

So far, we have been able to identify three rivers named as 'Saraswati' including the now dried up Indian Sarasvati, and it is expected a few more Indian 'Sarasvati Rivers' , perhaps, could be identified with exactitude, if only, some serious research is undertaken as there are stray references available in the list of Indian Rivers given in our Puranas about the presence of Sarasvati rivers in other parts of India too.

With this the identification of the original home of Aryans and their first Sarasvati issue stands resolved as given in above posts 730-731 of this thread page.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Aside to the main theme:

About use of sources in reconstruction of History kindly read good literature and then collect data, analyse it, develop a hypothesis, test it collecting/using both pro and anti points of views and then develop a thesis. These are the steps of research in History.

E.H. Carr, 'What is History' could be a good starting point for the new entrants in the field of research in History. There are many other good books available on the research methodology and use of sources which could be read with advantage to sharpen analytic skills in the field.

This is necessary component of research, if one is interested in developing an objective approach in one's writing skills.

 

[romar]

To conclude the discussion, a few words.

References regarding Avesta on mention of Sarswati/Harahvaiti has already been given so many times earlier too. For latest post on the issue kindly see the first line of the posts no. 731; and read post 730 also.

Aapki post 730 or 731 mein Iraniyon ke granth Avesta se saraswati nadi ke baare mein kisi shloka ka koi jikar nahi hai. Yeh kisi Roy jaise buddhijivi ki analysis hai jise aap yahan sab logon ko befizool mein sach maan ne ke liye kah rahe hain.

Yeh aap bhi acche se jaante hain.

Kyon aap yeh samajhna nahi chahahte ki jab Avesta mein Saraswati nadi ka ullekh hai nahi yeh tathya aapki Aryon ki Iran mein utpatti theory ka purn roop se khandan karta hai.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Our use of Avesta geographical names are verifiable by the scholars from original/ translated sources. For benefit of general reading public the following extract is produced with due acknowledgement to the original copy right holder.


"AVESTA: VENDIDAD (English): Fargard 1.

This digital edition copyright © 1995 by Joseph H. Peterson. All rights reserved.
Translated by James Darmesteter (From Sacred Books of the East, American Edition, 1898.)
Compare this chapter with the ancient description given of it in the Denkard, Book 8, Chapter 44.
For an analysis see Mary Boyce, Zoroastrianism : Its Antiquity and Constant Vigour (Columbia Lectures on Iranian Studies, No 7) (Costa Mesa, Mazda Pub, 1992, pp. 3 ff.) and A. Christensen, Le premier chapitre du Vendidad (Copenhagen, 1943).
Synopsis:
This chapter is an enumeration of sixteen perfect lands created by Ahura Mazda, and of as many plagues created in opposition by Angra Mainyu.
Many attempts have been made, not only to identify these sixteen lands, but also to draw historical conclusions from their order of succession, as representing the actual order of the migrations and settlements of the old Iranian tribes. But there is nothing in the text to support such wide inferences We have here nothing more than a geographical description of Iran, seen from the religious point of view.
Of these sixteen lands there are nine, as follows:--

AVESTAN NAME.	OLD PERSIAN.	GREEK	MODERN NAME.
Sughdha (2)	Suguda	Sogdianh	Soghd (Samarkand)
Mouru (3)	Margu	Margianh	Marv
Bakhdhi (4)	Bâkhtri	Baktra	Balkh
Haroyu (6)	Haraiva	`Areia	Harê(rud)
Vehrkana (9)	Varkâna	'Urkania	Gurgân, Jorgân
Harahvaiti (10)	Harauvati	`Aracwsia	Av-rokhaj, Arghand-(âb)
Haetumant (11)		`EtumandoV	Helmend
Ragha (12)	Ragâ	'Ragai	Raî
Hapta hindu (15)	Hindava	`Indoi	Hind (Punjab)

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which can be identified with certainty, as we are able to follow their names from the records of the Achaemenian kings or the works of classical writers down to the map of modern Iran.
For the other lands we are confined for information to the Pahlavi Commentary...........''

[Note 1 :Two holy lands have been marked bold and in different colour by me. Note 2. We may express reservation with this identification but the original names given in Avesta cannot be denied ..].

For further details, kindly Link http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd1sbe.htm:

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Further note on the two good lands by the learned author quoted in the above post is reproduced as below so as to remove,if there is any doubt in the minds of some participants in this discussion remains:

''.....................................

The tenth of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the beautiful Harahvaiti[SUP]29[/SUP].Thereupon came Angra Mainyu, who is all death, and he counter-created a sin for which there is no atonement, the burying of the dead[SUP]30[/SUP].

13. The eleventh of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the bright, glorious Haetumant[SUP]31[/SUP]." Thereupon came Angra Mainyu, who is all death, and he counter-created the evil work of witchcraft. <tbody> [TD="class: NOTE, bgcolor: #EEEEEE"]31. The basin of the EtumandroV or Erymanthus, now Hermend, Helmend, that is to say, the region of Saistân.

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[TD="class: NOTE, bgcolor: #EEEEEE"]29. Harauvati; `Aracwsia ; corrupted into Ar-rokhag (name of the country in the Arabic literature) and Arghand (in the modern name of the river Arghand-âb).30. See Vd3.36 ff .[/TD]

14. And this is the sign by which it is known, this is that by which it is seen at once: wheresoever they may go and raise a cry of sorcery, there[SUP]32[/SUP] the worst works of witchcraft go forth. From there they come to kill and strike at heart, and they bring locusts as many as they want[SUP]33[/SUP].

[TD="class: NOTE, bgcolor: #EEEEEE"]32. In Haetumant. — 'The plague created against Saistan is abundance of witchcraft: and that character appears from this, that all people from that place practise astrology: those wizards produce ... snow, hail, spiders, and locusts ' ( Gr Bd. ) Saistan, like Kabul, was half Indian (Maçoudi, II, 79-82), and Brahmans and Buddhists have the credit of being proficient in the darker sciences.[/TD]

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In the light of these final proofs as demanded by some participants, the matter regarding ancient names of the river Saraswati as well as older common home of the Aryans stands resolved.

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[romar]

In the light of these final proofs as demanded by some participants, the matter regarding ancient names of the river Saraswati as well as older common home of the Aryans stands resolved.

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Katai nahi. Jo aapne likha hai veh Ravi Chaudhary ne kayi din pehle likh diya thha. Shayad aapne padhne ka kasht nahi kiya. Nichod yeh hai ki Saraswati nadi ka kahin koh naam nahi hai :

"The tenth of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the beautiful Harahvaiti"

Yeh ek jaga Harahvaiti ke baare me baat kar raha ha hai Na ki nadi ke baare mein.

Aap ise nadi kaise padh rahe hain?

Sawal phir wohi hai ki Avesta mein saraswati nadi ka koi jikar nahi hai.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Some persons joined the discussion of the issue of the identification of rivers very late, For their convenience it is pointed out that they should read posts 63 and 64 to understand the rivers and regions by log in :

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?35324-Chronology-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page4

As regards my indentification of some rivers and Ravi Chaudhary's views on the identification of some of the rivers initially, kindly turn to posts 43 and 44 :

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...ogy-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page3

However, due to certain reasons, we have been deprived of his latest views, perhaps, due to his other pressing engagements. If he is free from his pre-engagements, he can benefit us by his expert comments on any of the topic but his name should not be dragged here unnecessarily.

Thanks

 

[prashantacmet]

Some persons joined the discussion of the issue of the identification of rivers very late, For their convenience it is pointed out that they should read posts 63 and 64 to understand the rivers and regions by log in :

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?35324-Chronology-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page4

As regards my indentification of some rivers and Ravi Chaudhary's views on the identification of some of the rivers initially, kindly turn to posts 43 and 44 :

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...ogy-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page3

However, due to certain reasons, we have been deprived of his latest views, perhaps, due to his other pressing engagements. If he is free from his pre-engagements, he can benefit us by his expert comments on any of the topic but his name should not be dragged here unnecessarily.

Thanks

Post 44 was written in a sarcastic manner!!..rajpal ji..do't you understand the way ? reallY??