Aarakshan ko dilli gherenge Jat

crsnadar said:
This is Politics
- Dirty Politics -

We don't want Reservation to get success.
We can get it on our own & will get it
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Rahul kaun hey bhai tu..keheney se peheley kuch soch to liya kar.."JAT AARAKSHAN SANGARSH SAMITI - JASS" is a non political organisation supported by Jat community non of the political leader is a worker of JASS.Mr. Yashpal Malik is the all India President of JASS. If People like Yashpal Malik working for community, I think we should support this social movement,but these baseless allegation does nt make any sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIgy9cnYgfc
 
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kapil.dalal said:
Jitender Bhai,

What do reservations achieve? They achieve significantly lesser competition.
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Bhaai Kapil, in addition to what Jitender Sir has already added.. Let me give another fine example of how reservation can actually improve the over all competition.

Case is of Tamilnadu Medical entrance exam, See what happened to cut-off over a period of 10 year:

Year 1996, the cut-off was

OC - 294
BC - 289
MBC - 283
SC - 269

Year 2005, the cut off was

OC - 297
BC - 295
MBC - 294
SC - 291
(OC is open category, BC is backward, MBC is Most backward and SC has the usual meaning.)

So, what is your conclusion here?? [By the way, during 1996-2005 there was no new caste addition in any of these categories. You can conclude the obvious effect of reservation here. :-)]

Now coming to Jat reservation: If there is no increase in 50% limit (of maximum reservation, as per Supreme Court directives) and Jats are included in the OBC list; it will do wonders to the cut-off for OBC category.. (cut-off will go up at once) And most importantly, NO harm to open category merit !!

Giving some % of reservation to a small section DOES effect the merit, including more and more castes under reserve category does NO further harm. It actually negates the ill-effect of reservation!! :-)

>> If you really support the ideology "merit should prevail", then you have NO reason to oppose the inclusion of JATs into OBC.

>> BUT if it is more of JAT ego ""हाम कमीण थोड़े ना हैं... जाट हैं... हामने reservation ना चाहिए; इब कमिणा खड़े हौंगे हाम ""; I do understand the sentiments and this shallow JAT pride. Even, my younger brother said that JAT should not be given reservation. He, like most here, has no cogent reason to oppose reservation.. ONLY Ego.. stupid, misplaced JAT pride. :-)

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kapil.dalal said:
When the bar is set lower, you get trained to jump lower. Your own level is influenced by what/who you are competing against. If you are competing against everyone (in no reservation case), you have to attempt to jump as high as you can. If everyone attempts to jump as high as they can, then why would everyone go mediocre?
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Kapil, I do appreciate your balanced view on almost all topics.. But i do not subscribe your theory here.
Of course, there is NO way that i can prove you wrong!! [simply because it is hypothetical; this is something you believe is going to happen based on certain assumptions]

But... by the same token, i can say that: "lowering of bar" will encourage me to aim higher !!
i mean, why hey NIT or some stupid engineering college.. now i am in OBC; Why not IIT!!
why SSC graduation level exam.. lets give a crack at UPSC, why bank PO.. why not try for CAT; why Rohtak medical college.. why not AFMC pune or AIIMS, why phd from DU or PU.. Lets face the IISc interview!! :D

What i mean to say is this: Even if somebody is under the illusion that OBC reservation "lowers the bar" (which it does NOT) and the fact that there are "many fields" with different bar heights; rather than aiming for the 'bar' lower than his/her potential, one can always choose other higher field as per his/her potential.

Benefit of reservation is not in terms of lower cut-off.. It is more about number of seats one fights for. I would not suggest anybody in OBC to prepare any lesser than what he/she would have prepared had he/she been in open category.
You take the example IIT-JEE... how much is the in-take ratio: 2-3% (m not sure)!! Students, who were in 3-4% range from the top are more or less of same IQ/competent. Situation is same in all other exams!
If reservation for Jats increases the competition in OBCs and it can improve the lives of even a few fellow Jats.. I have absolutely no reason to oppose it. Do I ??
 
sunillathwal said:
Bhaai Kapil, in addition to what Jitender Sir has already added.. Let me give another fine example of how reservation can actually improve the over all competition.

Case is of Tamilnadu Medical entrance exam, See what happened to cut-off over a period of 10 year:

Year 1996, the cut-off was

OC - 294
BC - 289
MBC - 283
SC - 269

Year 2005, the cut off was

OC - 297
BC - 295
MBC - 294
SC - 291
(OC is open category, BC is backward, MBC is Most backward and SC has the usual meaning.)

So, what is your conclusion here?? [By the way, during 1996-2005 there was no new caste addition in any of these categories. You can conclude the obvious effect of reservation here. :-)]

Now coming to Jat reservation: If there is no increase in 50% limit (of maximum reservation, as per Supreme Court directives) and Jats are included in the OBC list; it will do wonders to the cut-off for OBC category.. (cut-off will go up at once) And most importantly, NO harm to open category merit !!

Giving some % of reservation to a small section DOES effect the merit, including more and more castes under reserve category does NO further harm. It actually negates the ill-effect of reservation!! :-)

>> If you really support the ideology "merit should prevail", then you have NO reason to oppose the inclusion of JATs into OBC.

>> BUT if it is more of JAT ego ""हाम कमीण थोड़े ना हैं... जाट हैं... हामने reservation ना चाहिए; इब कमिणा खड़े हौंगे हाम ""; I do understand the sentiments and this shallow JAT pride. Even, my younger brother said that JAT should not be given reservation. He, like most here, has no cogent reason to oppose reservation.. ONLY Ego.. stupid, misplaced JAT pride. :-)

-----------------------------------------



Kapil, I do appreciate your balanced view on almost all topics.. But i do not subscribe your theory here.
Of course, there is NO way that i can prove you wrong!! [simply because it is hypothetical; this is something you believe is going to happen based on certain assumptions]

But... by the same token, i can say that: "lowering of bar" will encourage me to aim higher !!
i mean, why hey NIT or some stupid engineering college.. now i am in OBC; Why not IIT!!
why SSC graduation level exam.. lets give a crack at UPSC, why bank PO.. why not try for CAT; why Rohtak medical college.. why not AFMC pune or AIIMS, why phd from DU or PU.. Lets face the IISc interview!! :D

What i mean to say is this: Even if somebody is under the illusion that OBC reservation "lowers the bar" (which it does NOT) and the fact that there are "many fields" with different bar heights; rather than aiming for the 'bar' lower than his/her potential, one can always choose other higher field as per his/her potential.

Benefit of reservation is not in terms of lower cut-off.. It is more about number of seats one fights for. I would not suggest anybody in OBC to prepare any lesser than what he/she would have prepared had he/she been in open category.
You take the example IIT-JEE... how much is the in-take ratio: 2-3% (m not sure)!! Students, who were in 3-4% range from the top are more or less of same IQ/competent. Situation is same in all other exams!
If reservation for Jats increases the competition in OBCs and it can improve the lives of even a few fellow Jats.. I have absolutely no reason to oppose it. Do I ??
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Stats are like skirt, they are suggestive enough but still hide enough sanity. We can't generalize it on the basis of Tamilnadu MBBS merit list. We don't know the financial background of the candidates who are at top of the list and at the bottom of the list.

Many of us saying that by Reservation, we'll get more govt jobs.. However, nobody wants to see the ratio of govt jobs over pvt. sector jobs. All I am trying to understand is that why we are fighting hard for minuscule share..Though I agree that reservation may become trivial if we give reservation in each state on the basis of % population from each caste. It looks like an protectionism and history has proved that protected species generally extinct. I didn't notice any major changes in the social or economical aspects of jats from Rajasthan, UP and Delhi. I think debate is heading in right way but its too early to conclude and demand for reservation. It needs to put under the microscope and we may need to do analysis by comparing us with Baniya punjabis and not with Ahir and Chamar.
 
Jitender & Sunil,

I think both of you have given brilliant arguments on competition within OBC category. Let me concede on this specific point. While the data you guys are citing is for entrance examinations, I did my own google research for OBC vs. general category performance post entrance. That suggests that though the general category students have a better average performance than OBC students, the difference is not as large as I was fearing. Link below:
http://www.outlookindia.com/printarticle.aspx?250538

This is preliminary evidence and not the final word on the subject. But it does suggest that you guys were right about OBC being different from SC/ST. There is significant competition within OBC category. (On a separate note, it shows the extreme competition for education in India. Ideally, everyone above a certain threshold required for a profession should get a chance to pursue it. In India, there is a very fine filter, which may probably identify brilliant students, but gives no opportunity to a large deserving number. While people fight over how a small cake should be divided, there is no work done (or demand made) to expand its size).

Prima facie, Sunil's assertions that inclusion of Jats would increase the merit within OBC without affecting General Category also holds given the current evidence.

Sunil, my point about human inertia was not hypothetical. It is based on my own practical life experiences. Generations of SC/STs have been condemned to lower performance because of reservations. They have got "trained" to put in effort sufficient to take them over the bar, which is very low. The bar doesn't go higher as they don't put in more effort. They don't put in more effort as the bar doesn't go higher. It has become a vicious circle. My observations on SC/STs from IITs/IIMs is damning. Many seats go vacant, as there are no eligible candidates over minimum cutoff (which is much much below general cutoff). Those who enter often remain at the bottom of the batch. I have seen cases spending 7 years at IIT without managing to get a degree (1 yr prep course, 4 year degree, 2 years extension). Probably I had been too influenced by these observations on SC/STs. There was no OBC reservation back then. Thinking about it more, the difference with OBCs is:
1. The no. of "worthy" competitors within OBC is very high, much higher than SC/ST.
2. The OBC students had been part of general category so far, thus making them more competitive.
3. There is no difference in the academic/social background of OBC students compared to the General students. They have similar resources, in terms of good schooling and coaching institutes.

Having conceded on this point, I am still not convinced about reservations. Sunil, it is not about Jat ego. Well, at some subconscious level- maybe, but I have never argued on those grounds. The above analysis proves that the difference between OBC and General Category merit is not significant. And going a bit further, we'd see that the difference between their backgrounds is not much different. So what is the reservation for? If we look for OBCs from villages without good schooling/coaching getting admissions, we won't find many.

I am not a caste patriot. On principle, I don't see why a Jat with the same background as a general category student, should get preference over him, despite slightly lesser merit. I also believe that genuine upliftment of the needy requires good education/resources from the beginning rather than leepa-poti with reservation at the end. Still, I'd have some sympathy if the reservation goes to the genuinely needy, which is usually not the case. I am aware that this argument may not have much appeal on this forum.

There are other subtle issues as well. I think I won't have felt very comfortable with the reserved category tag, even if the difference in merit from general category was not much. Confidence is a big thing. Self-doubts lead to suboptimal performance. The circumstances I have seen, I think it'd have made a dent in confidence. But I can't prove it.
 
piush_tomar said:
Bhaio,

Western UP mein agar 1984 ke baad koi Jat IAS, IPS nahi hua iski waje yahi hey ke hum aur caste se peechecy ho gaye hey. Hamari ek peedi to Bekar hi ho gayee agar hum nahi to hamri apni community key barey mein to sochey. OBC reservation in central govenment is :jobs in paramilatry, railways etc.. This OBC reseration will also be there in IIT, IIM and other central universities and insitutions.JAT community is such a intelligent and hardworking community if we get OBC reservation in central govenement we will be every where and every department.
Hum sirf 20 saal key liye reservation de do chahey fir wapas le lena.:rock
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Piush Bhai Jab Jat Ke Lade College me jake padhai ki jagah dadagiri karenge to OBC nahi unhe ST me bhi le jaoge to bhi unhe phayda nahi hoga. Jab 1984 se pahle jat General caste me rahte hua IAS,IPS bane to aaj kya taklip hai. Aaj jarurat hai unki shiksha ka star sudhrne ki, unki soch badlnene ki, 80% jat sochte hai nokri nahi to kheti sahi ham bhukke thode hi mar rahe hai. Reservetion ki baat karke jato ki kamjori ko najar andaj mat kariye baniye brahman bhi General caste me rahkar hi IAS and IPS ban rahe hai. So Jato ko aarakshan ki baisakhi ki nahi update hone ki jarurat hai.
 
No body denies that jats need to be updated, they have to work, they have to get education, & they have to get united. your fear that reservation will demotivate jats against hard work, is not big danger now in these days when our children are fully educated & matured. Rest there is no disadvantage of reservation. Dear all who are opposing the useful efforts, where was the ability/capability of jats, sleeping till today, why we people wre forced to think about reservation. Dear Anjoo, political parties dominated by jats are efraid of reaction from other communities & why should political parties controlled by other people, talk for you.
 
Fateh said:
my sweat brother, I really donot understand that whom & for what, you are accusing. You may like to elobrate little bit, what ejectly , you are considering as politics plus dirty politics. Rahul, you seems to be an educated boy, it is not good on your part to use such words. you must come out with your points, counter each point for reservation or against reservation.I donot know which side is playing politics. I donot think , any body plays politics from either side or all, who so ever writing on this topic, . I happened to open the post & you wrote after my post, hence I am submitting above few lines please donot mind. Rahul I can assure you, atlist I am not playing politics & I donot thing any body else including you, playing any politics. And brother, if you have any information regarding politics, please let me know, I shall stop immediately wring on the topic. regards
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Sorry Sir,
Please don't take it personally.
I didn't point towards anyone specifically.
This was a general statement.
It is running around all over India.
 
JATs - Most deserving Community for OBCs

JATs - Most deserving Community for OBCs:

1.Primarily a peasantry class of Uttar Pradesh, Uttara Khand, Delhi, Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan,Gujrat, Madhya Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh and Bihar.
2.Belonging to farmers’ community and surviving on agriculture the JATs are at par with several other castes which are included in OBC list in terms of their occupation, social status, educational and economic background.
3.Having remained deprived for ages the JATs were denied the opportunity to get listed as OBCs as their other peer castes got through Mandal commission. JATs were denied the opportunity due to various political and bureaucratic interests.
4.JAT community continued with its peaceful demand of getting included in the list of OBCs at state as well as central level ever since the Mandal commission report was implemented.
5.In the year 1998-99 about a decade later from the time when Mandal Report was implemented, the JATs of Rajasthan were included in the OBC list at central level by the central Government.
6.JATs were granted OBCs status on state level in the states of Delhi, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh between 1998-2000.
7.The Jats of other states as Bihar, Himachal, Gujrat and Madhya Pradesh were also included in the state list of OBCs. However the community from Haryana, Punjab Maharashtra, J&k and Andhra Pradesh are yet to be included in the state list of OBCs.
8.This may be appreciated that the community has mostly been included in OBCs list by the state Governments except Haryana, Punjab, Maharashtra, J&k and Andhra Pradesh.
9. It is ironical that the Jats have been included in the OBC list by Pick and Choose policy of different State and Central Governments. Matter of Delhi state is pending for final order with NCBC Commission since 2000.
 
"Jaychand" of Jat community must be beaten before public

Like other Jat leaders Mr. Ajit singh also traumatized by “JAT DELHI MARCH” which is being organized by “Akhil Bhartiye Jat Aarakshan Sangarsh samiti” on 8th feb at Ramlila Ground, Delhi. He is disturbed and puzzled about his own political career in small part of western UP(Baghpat) and two days before he again raised issue of “Harit Pradesh” (http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/news/local/uttarpradesh/4_1_6137074.html) for dividing the Jat community on Harit Pradesh and “Jat OBC reservation” But Jats from western UP are now well aware of his rotten politics. His RLD party goons roaming in his own constituency and misleading the jat community as they are doing since last 30 years. Despite raising question about JAT OBC reservation in parliament he is doing all gimmicks to stop this movement.

Over 10 Lac Jats are expected to join this “Delhi March” from all over India and Like other political leader he is also trying to disturb this movement in every way. He is trying all kind of “Hathkande” whether its media or public meeting to stop this historical Jat Movement. These "Jaychand" of Jat community must be naked before the public and kicked out forever.
 
Jat reservation movement has entered a decisive phase now.

More and more political leaders are coming openly in favor of Jat community fearing an awaking among Jats regarding injustice done to this community. Jat leaders are coming openly in support of their brother's rights and some of them even met certain key political figures.

Frequency of Meeting to raise this demand has increased considerably. Three such meeting are scheduled for tomorrow at Kanjawala ,Bahadurgarh and Alawalpur in Palval.Choudhary Yashpal Malik along with Commandant Hawa Singh Sangwan , Retd Chief Justice DS Tewatia and many others are working day and night for the success of this Jat Show.

Friend it may take some time but Destination is not far away .

Let us unitedly stand to protect the future of our own people.
 
Sincere Efforts never go unrewarded..........


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-quota-for-Jats-in-UP/articleshow/5511520.cms

With eye on polls, Cong backs quota for Jats in UP

Bhaskar Roy, TNN, 29 January 2010, 04:11am IST
Text Size:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topics.cms?query=Jats

NEW DELHI: In an unmistakable sign of its rising political ambition in Uttar Pradesh, Congress has made a tactical move to back the influential Jat community's demand for OBC reservation in the state.

Taking a politically significant step, the party on Thursday made it clear to the Centre that it should sympathetically consider the plea of Jats in UP for inclusion in the category of OBCs for reservation.

What is unstated is the party's attempt to influence the UPA government to raise its electoral stock in the state by winning over Jats, the dominant community in western UP, before the 2012 assembly elections. A delegation of the state's Jat Mahasabha met minister for social justice Mukul Wasnik during the day demanding that the community be given OBC reservation under the Union government.

Though the community already enjoys the benefit of OBC quota under the state government, this move will entitle them to reservation for Union government jobs and central universities. The electoral calculations are not difficult to fathom: Jats are the deciding factor in about 100 assembly segments.

Keeping the political windfall in mind, Congress is holding a rally at Muzaffarnagar, one of the political nerve-centres of UP, on February 5.
 
Inhi Jaychando ke barey mein kehe raha huin mein...

http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/epaper/index.php?location=36&edition=2010-01-30&pageno=11#

Narender Bhai,

Please go through the above mentioned link, this is the same thing what Mr. Yashpal malik(All India President- Jat aarakshan sangarsh samiti) trying to say to Jat community and same what I am trying to say here…Yeh jo " times of india' ka link aapney bheja hey..yahi to who Jaychand hey to ab pitney chahiye. Yeh hamari madad nahi hey balki is movement ko rokney ki shajis hey.Congress ke kuch neta like Digvijay singh trying to weakening the JAT movement with help of chote-motey neta like Harender malik and with the help and guidence of congress leader Digvijay singh he is organizing the congress rally on 5th feb at Muzzafarnagar, UP.Kya in chote netao ko yeh pata nahi 8 feb mein Dilli ki jameen on lakhon Jaton ke kadmon se hil jayegi..kya jarorat inko yeh rally organize karney ki.Yeh Jaychand chahatey hey key is toofan ko kisi tarah se roko…magar afsos , yeh toofan to ab chal diya hey Dilli ki aur..
This deliberate attempt by these “Jaychand” will not be fulfilled and They actually worried about their own sinking image and character before the public.
 
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Piush, I have interacted with many brothers includinf Ch Omperkash Chautala sahab, Ch Bhupender singh Hooda sahab & leaders from some other political parties, people from service class, business people, elderly/ yougesters, men/ women etc, IN PVT NON OBJECTS RESERVATION FOR JATS. Also on our this forum, I think, most of the brothers who are talking against the topic, not really against but trying to show of their achieements or acievements of their near/dear & through their nagative expression, want to show their educated position. Anyway, 100% unity is not there in any community, why we should expect from jats who never came together for any cause & jat unity on reservation seems to be very difficult in futre also. Thus, please keep marching ahead, God will help the selfless & sincere hard workers. regards
 
Piush Bhai

I agree with you here .I was not knowing the internal dynamics of this drama.On a positive note this shows the impact of this movement on the minds of politicians who were sleeping till the other day.While Choudhary Yashpal Malik is fighting for the Reservation of Jats on all India basis ,these people wants to lure Jats from UP and weaken this movement on all India basis.I came to know that Central Govt is planing to refer the case to another Backward commission .....seems just a delaying tactic.
 
piush_tomar said:
http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/epaper/index.php?location=36&edition=2010-01-30&pageno=11#

Narender Bhai,

Please go through the above mentioned link, this is the same thing what Mr. Yashpal malik(All India President- Jat aarakshan sangarsh samiti) trying to say to Jat community and same what I am trying to say here…Yeh jo " times of india' ka link aapney bheja hey..yahi to who Jaychand hey to ab pitney chahiye. Yeh hamari madad nahi hey balki is movement ko rokney ki shajis hey.Congress ke kuch neta like Digvijay singh trying to weakening the JAT movement with help of chote-motey neta like Harender malik and with the help and guidence of congress leader Digvijay singh he is organizing the congress rally on 5th feb at Muzzafarnagar, UP.Kya in chote netao ko yeh pata nahi 8 feb mein Dilli ki jameen on lakhon Jaton ke kadmon se hil jayegi..kya jarorat inko yeh rally organize karney ki.Yeh Jaychand chahatey hey key is toofan ko kisi tarah se roko…magar afsos , yeh toofan to ab chal diya hey Dilli ki aur..
This deliberate attempt by these “Jaychand” will not be fulfilled and They actually worried about their own sinking image and character before the public.
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Piyush with all due respect to your passionate affair, just curious to check with the meaning of word in bold and italics?
 
Samarkadian said:
Piyush with all due respect to your passionate affair, just curious to check with the meaning of word in bold and italics?
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movement : here refers to the efforts of all our JAT brethren who are striving hard for the reservation. do you want me to translate that in french or spanish? i can even do it in zulu.
 
narenderkharb said:
Jat reservation movement has entered a decisive phase now.

More and more political leaders are coming openly in favor of Jat community fearing an awaking among Jats regarding injustice done to this community. Jat leaders are coming openly in support of their brother's rights and some of them even met certain key political figures.

Frequency of Meeting to raise this demand has increased considerably. Three such meeting are scheduled for tomorrow at Kanjawala ,Bahadurgarh and Alawalpur in Palval.Choudhary Yashpal Malik along with Commandant Hawa Singh Sangwan , Retd Chief Justice DS Tewatia and many others are working day and night for the success of this Jat Show.

Friend it may take some time but Destination is not far away .

Let us unitedly stand to protect the future of our own people.
Click to expand...
your efforts are appreciated... SIR !
 
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