Allowing Sikh JaTs on this site

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Dear Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde Ji
I persoanlly not in favour to allows Moslem or Sikh on this site.
But I liked very much your ratinal,logical and rustic phrases e.g.

Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde (Mar 04, 2004 12:39 p.m.):

... Jat ki marod ko koi karod me bhi nahi khareed sakta...

----and-------

...Jab MA pass Chamari ho, LLB Ghasyaari Ho
Tab desh ka naksha badlega......
Click to expand...
 
Dear Col Malik

Here is what you wrote on the Jatt or Jatt Sikh Thread

Your words there are of a true visionary


Ravi



******************

http://www.jatland.com/cgi-bin/ub/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=19&TID=624&P=1&SID=72899#ID7




Dear All,
JAT SIKHS and JATS are the same, from the same stock and are brothers. Let me give you a brief insight into history.

Guru Govind Singh Ji asked for five people whom he wanted to sacrifice for the 'Panth'. The five who came forward were: one Khatriya, one JAT, a Calico Painter, one Water Carrier (Bhisti) and one Barber. These five later came to be known as Panch Pyara's.

Legend has it that when Guru Teg Bahadur Ji was beheaded by the Muslim rulers in Chandni Chowk (Sis Ganj Gurudwara stand there today), the Sikhs took his head and ran on horseback towards North ie towards Anandpur Sahib. The horses need to take rest and water, so they stopped at a village called 'Badkhalsa' (Now situated near Delhi - Haryana border). A JAT villager understood that these brave SIKHS would not be able to out run the Muslim horsemen and did something which should make us all, JATS and SIKHS, proud. He asked the villagers to behead him and hand over his head to the chasing horsemen. (The JAT had resemblence with Guru Teg Bahadur. He was similar in built). He was beheaded, the SIKHS were able to take the head of their Guru to Anandpur Sahib and the Muslims returned to Delhi with the head of this humble JAT from a small village. The village was then given its present name 'BADA KHALSA' by the next SIKH Guru. With times this has now become Badkhalsa.

It is a well known fact that JAT SIKHS and JATS are one. The 'Tilak', 'Tarazu' and 'Talwar' (Brahmin, Bania and Thakur) nexus never wanted the common man to know this, and that is why extortions of our history by these.

Keep searching and you would find many such examples.

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
JAT BALWAN, JAI BHAGWAN

*****************
 
Dears All,
Personally I think, a Jat remains a Jat, even if he changes his religious belief.
The word Jat does not allude to any religious community.
It implies to a racial community.
In wider sense, the word Hindu also does not stand for a religion. It denotes people of Sindh
Civilization, who spread to east and then to rest of India.
Just near us, there is a large village DANODA of Nain khap of Jats. Here there are still many Jat
families who are Jains by faith, and yet they have got Hindu Jat relatives
The Muslims and Sikhs are very recent faiths and there are many distinguished Jats among them.
Our Bishnois are mainly Jats with same Gotras.
Here I live near Punjab border and in some villages, this is common practice among Hindu and Sikh
families to marry each other.
The racial character should not be confused with religious faith.
There are even families whose members practice different faiths and beliefs.
As a race also, one may like it or not, just like other races, we are a mixed lot.
In past there had been lot of mixing with other communities and It is still going on even today.
We commonly accept this fact –JAT KE JO BHYAH KE AGI, WA JATANI HOGI.
But their offspring’s will definitely have a mixed character.
Just by our thought and acceptance, we can’t change the biological process.
We Jats have got more of physical characters of Aryan race, but there are Jats who clearly show the
Dravidian characters of the colour and facial build of projecting jaw and slanting forehead and curly
hair.
Facts are facts and we can’t deny them.
The fact is that we Jats had been mainly rural people.
Our main profession had been farming and livestock breeding.
But when called upon, we proved to be good warriors.
You may say –military was our second profession.
And both these professions demand lot of physical indurance and stamina.
So over centuries we developed into a rough, tough and sturdy lot.
But with changing times, we have made a niche in all other professions and proved that we are
capable of everything and we don’t lag behind any one else.
As compared to other communities, Jats had been less orthodox and always showed scanty respect o
to the Brahminical class.
There is a proverb in our villages –KAAL BAAGAR (dry land) TEIN UPJAI, BURA BAHMAN TEIN
HO!
The other word for a Brahmin in their vocabulary is a –TARDA, which is a disdainful expression.
They always preferred wet lands and greener pastures.
But nobody leaves a greener pasture for others.
So they had to use force.
Sometimes they failed and sometimes they succeeded and thus they spread to many greener
pastures.
They were not averse to changing faith.
They considered it more of personal affair and not a social issue and were more tolerant to it.
.
NOW WHEHER TO ALLOW MUSLIM JATS AND SIKH JATS ON THIS WEBSITE?
I think we must allow, rather we should invite them to come and share their experience andthoughts.
They are our brothers.
The religious and sectarian boundaries of region should not devide us.
We will be a bigger community, with a wider horizon and better force to reckon with our exploiter
classes.
.
With all good wishes,
Dr. P S Sangwan
Sangwan Hospital
Uklana Mandi Distt. Hisar Haryana -125 113
Ph. 01693-233077, 233677, 235077, M-9416044077
pssangwan@rediffmail.com
 
Dr. Partap Singh Sangwan (Mar 07, 2004 08:14 p.m.):
Dears All,
Personally I think, a Jat remains a Jat, even if he changes his religious belief.


Thank you Dr Sangwan


It will probably be a surprise to some, but many Jats were and are Jains.

Visit the Jathistory group and see for yourself.

Many Jat rulers of Rajastan were Jains.

Chandragupta Maurya, the Jat, also accepted Jainism as his religion in his later life

To day we rediscover, that the Maur, Maurya Empire was a Jat empire.

Should we be proud of that, or should we reject that, because Chandra Gupta was a Jain, and his grandson,Ashoka was a Buddhist. ?

The Jat society and empire spread from Afghanistan to Bengal and Orissa and South India.

We can either reclaim our heritage or shrink ourselves to Poverty and insignificance.

Again, these are troubling isssues,but they will not go away if we stick our heads in the sand.

We Jats have never been afraid of adversity and challenges.

Will we not rise to the occasion today ?

Ravi
Click to expand...
 
Dear Ravi,

Thanks for quoting my earlier mail. And I am no visionary. I am a simple JAT. I was born in a village and was lucky to have studied in a Sainik School very far from home (In Karnataka State). I got luckier when I was commissioned in the Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry. For your information all Jawans of this regiment are recruited only from the state of J&K only. The officers are from all over the country. I have been indeed grateful to God all this while and more so because I got an opportunity to pray in Mandir -Maszid-Gurudwara (popularly called MMG in the regiment) for 21 years. I know more about Islam than many Moslems.

However, all that is my personal experience which I share with others to bring about an acceptnace that there is one God or Power and differents ways to get there. But does everyone think so? Not my Muslim friens.

I am now working in Mumbai and live in a predominantly Muslim neighbourhood. There are two Masjids nearby. In fact I am woken up everuday by 'Azan' and I take it that I have also marked my presence to the Almighty. One day I went to the Masjid and asked the Maulvi whether I can attend Namaz? I did not tell him who I was, but since I have grown 'French Cut', he may have thought that I was a Muslim. He said why not. Then I told him I was a Hindu. He nearly fainted and polietly refused me.

What I am trying to get to is a very simple point. Let us first make sure that we learn to communicate within our own community and then have grand plans of integrating the Sikhs and Muslims. I am a very broadminded person but when it comes to my core beliefs about my 'Kaum' ie JATS (And I don't consider myself to be a Hindu. I am an Arya Samaji and a JAT), I have very extreme views.

I wish the Muslims and Sikhs all the happiness in thid world. Let them multiply as much as they wish. As an individual I am first concerned about my family, then my near and dear ones (many of them from different castes and creeds), then my Kaum and then the country. No Sir, I am a JAT first and then a Haryanvi and then an Indian. And when I was in the Army I was a soldier first and my religion was the religion of my Jawans. I know this might surprise a lot of people but then those are my beliefs. Today it has become fashionable to say 'I am an Indian' first and foremost, especially amongst those who have caused maximum damage to the very fabric of this country. These 'India Shining Wallas'. Let me first be a good son, husband, father brother and friend and then when time comes to give my life for the country, I would do so only when I see these 'Shinng Wallas first make sacrifices themselves (I am still on the reserve list). Let me first make a difference in the life of one JAT who is not related to me (though all JATS are supposed to be related), then I will think of integrating the Sikhs and Muslims. I know enough about then and don't want to learn more from then. My first priority is towards educating those poorest of the poor JATS who have been forgotton by their brethern who feel making chips in Bangalore is better than making cowdung cakes in villages.

Another point about Dr Sangwan's point that "Whoever marries a JAT, becomes a JAT". I don't think so. I don't have any relative abroad (have not tried to find out but there are many out there) and would like to know from those who have married white Americans or Europeans whether this is true. Have you made them JATNIS or they have made you, whatever?

Mr Ravi, I am very clear. I think the aim of this site is as written by Budh Nashier Bahi and Sujata Ji. Let us first make a difference to our own community and then think of others. Yes, those of us who feel the pangs of separation, please go ahead and become a Muslim or Sikh. Why not? Aren't we all JATS. And those who want to get educated, please do so but spare simple JATS like me.

Thanks and regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
 
Col Malik

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

We must keep in mind why this subject arose in the first place.

I recived a request from some Sikh Jats, wondering why they could not post on the Jatland site , while all who wished to do so, ( Sikh Jat, or anyone else could do so on theirs and were welcome.

I had no answer to give, and put their request to this group.

The choice to interact or not is upto the members of this group.

It does not affect me personally whether this group accepts requests for help from Sikh Jats or not ( Today at any rate).

A time may come, when some Jats ( hindu) may need help from the Sikh Jats. Will they not remember the reaction we gave them today.?


A few years ago, I heard of an event, that at one of the annual Jat Sabha meetings in Delhi, a group from Andhra Pradesh came to the meeting.

Thye said they were Jats, and had over one hundred villages in Andhra.

They were facing difficulties and wished help from their Jat Bretheren in the north.

I do not what happened next. Chances are not much.

If that request came again, today, I guess some members of this list would refuse to talk to them.

If the Sikh Jats are looking for understanding, interaction, and support, should we simply say-

" No, No and NO, - we will not even enter into a conversation ?"

Please reflect upon it.


Ravi
 
Dear Ravi,

Has anyone denied you the freedom to express your opinions and requests the way you want to? No. We have been carrying out a meaningful discussion and I believe that if two people agree on everything then one of them is surely abnormal, if not both.

Please understand that request by few Sikhs to participate in Jatland does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the entire community. I know you will say that a begining should be made. I too want the same thing but a little differently. You seem to want that all JATS of the world will unite under one banner and then we start to do something for the community. It is good to be futuristic and think ahead. I am not that intelligent or forward looking and my approach is slightly different. I am more of a grassroot man. I think about the poorest of the poor JAT of my village who is unable to educate his daughter for want of money. I want to first help him rather than thinking of integrating JATS of the World. May be I am not educated enough to think big but I shall endevor to make a difference in the life if few poorest of the poor JATS. And I want to start from my village and not from Amritsar or Lahore.

I know of hundreds of JAT villages lacking basic sanitation. Let us think about bringing about some change in their lives rather than looking after Andhra JATS. The issue is too simple to be understood. And if the Andhra JATS came for the convention, I believe they would have given some advance notice and should have been looked after. But their problems cannot be sorted out by North Indian JATS as long as there is poverty in North Indian villages. Of course, in times of drought and other natural calamities the North Indian JATS do help them with foodgrains, animal fodder and water.

If the 'Karta Dhartas' of this site want to admit Muslim, Sikh and all other Non Hindu JATS, I have absolutely no problem but my personal opinion is NO. I also believe if such an admission is granted this will become a buggers muddle and at least I would not want to get dirty. I have so many things to do rather than try and explain to a Muslim that there is but God, which he would refute in the name of Allah and say only his God exists and others are 'Kafirs'.

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
 
Col Malik

You know I respect your personal view.

I will request that you post your view of Muslims on that thread. I now it is a very difficult topic, and that is why I separated it at the outset, when another member played the Muslim card.

The mere inclusion of a reference to Muslims is enough to raise emotions to piont where no conversation is possible.

I am well aware of our difficulties with the followers of this religion. Browse through my posts here and the Jathistory group.

I will request you( and others) not mix the threads

Ravi
 
Re andhra Jats

The issue was not whether the Andhra Jats should have got, lodging and shelter, but that they asking for help, for their problems back home

My guess no help was given?

My guesses as to why :

We north Indian Hindu Jats were too preocupied with our problems, were too disorganized, and had no ability to give help even if we wished to do so.

Help would mean, money, political clout.

We have none of that.

Apathy would have prevailed and everyone after the Sabha went home to their daily routine.

And yes, I do have a vision where we like minded people unite, and bring our clout together,

for political and economic power

Today the Sikh Jats ands Jats are over 70 million. That dominates Punjab, Haryana, UP, and Rajasthan.

Most of Producutive India,especially the Capital region.

Without that,

you will not be able to do the very thing you say that you wish to do, help uneducated Kids in the Hindu Jat Villages .

"We cannot even look after oursleves, how can we help others."

To that I would say "If we are not willing help others, others will not be there to help us."

and we do not have to restrict our focus,

others will come to help, for their own reasons.

All we need to do is to create a welcoming environment.

Ravi
 
Thoda ajeeb sa lagta hai sun kae ki jat sikh ko bhi jatland mae shamil karna chaeyae just becoz somebody asked for it....i have nottin against jat sikhs rather i have lots of jat sikh freinds... but at many instance I realised one thing with them......jat sikhs never consider us as one of them......although i am close to my jat sikh frnds but still they would say nooooo......u a different jat....AND THATS WHAT THEY BELEIVE IN .....and I might be wrong to say this ... i personally think ..it would not be a great idea to accept jat sikh in this family........
 
I guess, dietetic habits, matrimonial preferences, and practice of a particular religion are personal choices. How communication with others will invade someone's privacy?
If someone is determined to extend his helping hands at personal level. How a dialogue with others will hinder him?
I am not saying that we should go for hunting of non hindu jats. All I mean is please allow if someone is interested to interact with us.
Please do not forget, we will still have moderators if discussion is out of line.
I simply can not get, how avoidance of a conversation will help, we Jats.
 
Isnt it interesting that the offer to join has come from Jat Sikhs?
Before we jump to conclusions, isnt it a good idea to find out what motivated them to join this forum? Do they have a hidden agenda? Do we really know them? Have we heard their side of story to come to a fair conclusion?
 
Dear Ravi,

Since the basic issue is 'Whether Non Hindu JATS be allowed to be members of this site' does it matter whether we discuss Sikhs or Muslims? However, your point is well taken.

Now let me give my views on your 'vision' of uniting the North Indian JATS so that they have economic and political clout.

It would be wiser to first unite the family, then the larger family (Panna) and then the village, if you want your vision to even start taking shape. I don't know how educated and aware we all are about the real conditions that prevail in the rural areas. Without ensuring better future for those in the rural areas all this talk about JAT clout has no meaning. And I am glad that people with vision have done and are doing exactly that to address this basic fact. They are opening educational institutions in villages to educate 'Uneducated Kids'.

Now on the question of creating an welcoming environment, a point raised by another member. My feeling is that let us create a welcoming environment for our own JATS before allowing Sikhs on this site. Those of you who feel very close to the Sikhs (I too have few Sikh friends) please welcome them in the most befitting manner in your houses, offices or whereever. I personally feel we should be spared the 'Refugee Culture' that is now considered synonymous with Sikhs.

Please hear their side of the story by sending them private mails. I first want to hear the story of my JATS and learn from them for I have no grand plans of uniting the JATS of the World to create a clout, political and economical.

There are few promonent JATS in the country who can make a difference if they want to. They can do what would take JATLAND 100 years to do. Namely unite all Hindu JATS. Why can't these Chautalas. Ajit Singhs, Bansi Lals and Jhakhars come under the banner of one party and fight for the JAT cause? The answer is very simple and historically proven. 'We are like this only'. What Rajinder Ji has nicely descrived as "JAT ki Marod" (Though I don't agree with him on allowing Sikhs and Muslims on this site)

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
 
Here are two Jatt Sikh Sites.

is there anything threatening here ?

http://www.jattworld.com/exoops/

http://pub49.ezboard.com/fjattincboard30296frm1

Ravi
 
ravi bhai ye konsa game khel rahe ho aap?...
u r looking like "dono haatho pe laddoo"....


http://www.jattworld.com/exoops/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=437&forum=3#8034
 
Hemant kr choudhary (Mar 11, 2004 03:06 a.m.):
ravi bhai ye konsa game khel rahe ho aap?...
u r looking like "dono haatho pe laddoo"....


http://www.jattworld.com/exoops/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=437&forum=3#8034
Click to expand...


One member there, going by the name of Ajat, whio is actually quite knowledgable on Jat culture and history, made a comment about Shri Dudhee that was not correct, and would be misunderstood.

I clarified it, and pointed how Shri Dudhee was very sincere, dedicated, was a historian,and had done, and is doing much for education of Jats and Jat girls in rural areas.

The person accepted that clarification,and was willing to help ion such rural eduacation projects.

I have suggested he join Dudheeji's education group.

Another Jat Sikh lady Nadia Deol a PHd is also a member of that education group, from the inception of that group, and has developed and presented a working paper on rural education.


If the matter was not addressed immediately , there would be misunderstanding and bad blood.

I hope that clarifies the issue.

As suggested by Shri Nashier, I am now going to leave this topic alone.

Members have enough information to digest and come to their own conclusions

Ravi Chaudhary
 
Hi all,
I am new member of the family. A warm hello to everybody.
Well, i knew Jatt's and their history.

Sikhism was founded by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the 10th guru. Before him all the nine Guru's were Hindu. Guru Gobind Singh ji had to fight with Aurangjeb and needs soldiers for that. So he asked for volunteers and got a huge response all over the North India. They gather at a place i don't know exactly, maybe Swarn Mandir (Golden Temple, Why it is called a Mandir think it) where and then Guru Gobind Singh told them from now on everbody of us would be known a Singh (Lion). That's why every sikh use Singh with his name. He made some other resolutions that leds to sikhism (five K's : Kanga (Comb), Kada , kesh (Hair), Kachcha (underwear) and Kirpan ( Sword) ) and Amrit (Nector) for the reason that from now on they are Sikhs.
His jat followers became Jatt's. You can prove it very easily by simply comparing the gotra in Jat's and Jatt's . "THEY ARE SAME". So by default they are JAT by origin.

I am not into debate that they should included or not but i am strongly in favor of the fact that we have same flesh, same hot blood and are brothers. That's it.

I will appreciate your suggestions on it.
Thanks.
 
I am all in favour of including Jatsikh's here. So far i never had any bad experience with jat-sikh. I found them identifying with Hindu-Jats and often i see them in same group as us.
Since Sikhism was made to protect hinduism, we dont have any deep rooted animosity towards them and vice-versa. The most of the differences are social and are not grave as such. :rolleyes:

However if i am missing any point then please enlighten me. As far as i know there was no bloodbath between H-Jats and S-Jats :) at any point of time.


I am sure there are many Sikh Jats already on forum like ramandeep. They identify themselves as Jat and thats important.

The case of Muslim Jat is bit different, we have long history of fighting with them. I dont hold favourable view of Muslim-Jats.

Note: If anyone talks of creating khalistan, just kick him.
 
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Jat Sikhs

atul.jhajhria said:
I am all in favour of including Jatsikh's here. So far i never had any bad experience with jat-sikh. I found them identifying with Hindu-Jats and often i see them in same group as us.
Since Sikhism was made to protect hinduism, we dont have any deep rooted animosity towards them and vice-versa. The most of the differences are social and are not grave as such. :rolleyes:

However if i am missing any point then please enlighten me. As far as i know there was no bloodbath between H-Jats and S-Jats :) at any point of time.


I am sure there are many Sikh Jats already on forum like ramandeep. They identify themselves as Jat and thats important.

The case of Muslim Jat is bit different, we have long history of fighting with them. I dont hold favourable view of Muslim-Jats.

Note: If anyone talks of creating khalistan, just kick him.
Click to expand...

That sums up my opinion as well.

Hindus and Sikhs can live together with mutual respect. They have done it for generations. So why a fuss ?

If a muslim jat is ready to forgo the notion of Arabian God why not him as well. Subah ka bhoola shaam ko ghar aa jaye to bhoola nahin kahalata.
 
Ravi Choudhary Sahab,
Mujhe Jat Sikhoon Se Koi Preshani Nahi, Mein To Chahta Hoon Ki Aap Site Par Punjabi Music Bhi Load Karwae, Punjab Hariyana Ko Phir Se Ek Kar De, And Us To Okhi Gal Ae Hagi Ki Saadi Shaadi Vaste Ek Changi Si Sardarni Bhi Vekh Lyo
 
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