Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

4 हजार साल पहले भारत के लोग गए थे आस्ट्रेलिया
भास्कर जयपुर 16 दिसंबर 4 हजार साल पहले भारत के लोग गए थे आस्ट्रेलिया : इंसानी जीनोम के अधययन से पता चला है कि करीब 4230 साल पहले भारत, पपुआ गिनी और दक्षिण पूर्व एसिया के लोग प्रवास पर आस्ट्रेलिया गए थे इससे पहले के अध्ययन में पाया गया था कि वहां 45000 साल पहले रहने गए थे।

This study by Max Plank Institute For Evolutionary Anthropology Germany provides us exact date 2218 BC as a date of migration of people from India. We need to study what were causes of migration and if at all it has relation with Indian Epics.

Also see the link: http://newobserverpost.blogspot.in/2013/01/blog-post_7897.html

ऑस्ट्रेलियाई मूल निवासियों में हो सकते हैं भारतीय जीन्स:अध्ययन


वैज्ञानिकों ने भारतीय और ऑस्ट्रेलिया के बीच होने वाले जैविक प्रवाह के सबूत खोज निकाले हैं.

यह प्रवाह लगभग आज से लगभग चार हजार साल पुराना माना जाता है.

भारत और ऑस्ट्रेलिया का यह संपर्क भारत के यूरोप के साथ संबंधों से भी पुराना है.

शोधकर्ताओं ने ऑस्ट्रेलिया के सबसे पुराने निवासियों, न्यू गिनी के लोगों, दक्षिण पूर्वी एशियाई और भारतीयों में जीन परिवर्तनों का विश्लेषण किया.

इन परिणामों से पता चलता है कि आज से 4,230 साल पहले भारत से ऑस्ट्रेलिया की ओर काफी मात्रा में जैविक प्रवाह हुआ था. यह यूरोप के संपर्क में आने से पहले की बात है.

ऐसा माना जाता है कि ऑस्ट्रेलिया लगभग 40 हजार साल पहले अपने प्रारंभिक उपनिवेशीकरण और 1800 के अंतिम सालों में यूरोपीयों के आने के बीच में अलग-थलग सा पड़ा रहा था.

इस अध्ययन को जर्मनी के मैक्स प्लांक इंस्टीट्यूट फॉर एवोल्यूशनरी एंथ्रोपोलॉजी ने किया. संस्थान को ऑस्ट्रेलियाई, न्यू गिनी और फिलीपीन की मामान्वा जनसंख्या के बीच एक समान उद्भव के सबूत देखे.

इन समुदायों ने शुरूआत में दक्षिणी दिशा में प्रवास मार्ग को अपनाया था जबकि अन्य आबादी इस क्षेत्र में कुछ समय बाद रहने आईं.
 
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lrburdak said:
भास्कर की एक लिंक और
भारत का इतिहास

http://www.thebhaskar.com/p/blog-page.html#.UPbFrPJf2LE
Click to expand...



Thanks burdakji for the information.

The page is based on link as provided in the Bhaskar link given above :http://www.hindunet.org/


Further On this site are found the following two relevant paper on the basis of the study of the same some realistic inferences could be drawn on the chronology of the Mahabharata.

1. www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/.../mahab_patnaik.html



2. For other view :http://www.hindunet.org/home/dharma_and_philosophy/vshirvaikar/MBWAR.html

But these findings need further critical analysis before it could be accepted as historical fact. Hence cooperation of the scholars is solicited to solve this problem.

Thanks and regards
 
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This link will make Narhari Achar go crazy. Like him, it also relies on astronomical readings but arrives at a much earlier date:

Mahabharat war started 16th Oct.

Abhimanyu killed 28th Oct. 5561 BC.

End of War 2nd November 5561 B.C.

Not only that he did a favour by providing Ramayan's date too:

Here under is provided a short table dates of important Mahabharat events in years. (Dates and Tithis in years in Rama Samvat assuming Shri Rama Samvat 1st January. 1 equivalent to 1st Jan 7323 B.C. Rama's birth date has been conclusively proved to be 4th Dec. 7323 B.C.( "Vastav Ramayan").

Another important date, which is not to be missed and proven by astronomical dates also:
Dinner to Brahmins 29th Sept.

Another link on the same site provides following eye catching dates:
(http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_agrawal.html)

Vedic Age - 7000-4000 BC
End of Rig Vedic Age - 3750 BC
End of Ramayana - Mahabharat Period - 3000 BC
Development of Saraswati-Indus Civilization - 3000-2000 BC
Decline of Indus and Saraswati Civilization - 2200-1900 BC
Period of Complete chaos and migration - 2000-1500 BC
Period of evolution of syncretic Hindu culture - 1400 - 250 BC

DrRajpalSingh said:
One more link for Mahabharata chronology : www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/.../mahab_vartak.html


Thanks
Click to expand...
 
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nrao said:
One link on this site provides following dates (this is a somewhat new development), it really caught my attention:

Vedic Age - 7000-4000 BC
End of Rig Vedic Age - 3750 BC
End of Ramayana - Mahabharat Period - 3000 BC
Development of Saraswati-Indus Civilization - 3000-2000 BC
Decline of Indus and Saraswati Civilization - 2200-1900 BC
Period of Complete chaos and migration - 2000-1500 BC
Period of evolution of syncretic Hindu culture - 1400 - 250 BC
Click to expand...

Kindly provide link so that the full information could be seen.

Thanks
 
nrao said:
I had modified my original post after you replied but here is the link:

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_agrawal.html
Click to expand...

Friend,

The paper of Agrawal contains the following chronology without quoting any source to support as references given on the bottom are modern books not source books:

"
  1. Chronology of the pre-historic period of India
    • Vedic Age - 7000-4000 BC
    • End of Rig Vedic Age - 3750 BC
    • End of Ramayana - Mahabharat Period - 3000 BC
    • Development of Saraswati-Indus Civilization - 3000-2000 BC
    • Decline of Indus and Saraswati Civilization - 2200-1900 BC
    • Period of Complete chaos and migration - 2000-1500 BC
    • Period of evolution of syncretic Hindu culture - 1400 - 250 BC
[SIZE=+1]References[/SIZE]Most of the material presented above has been taken from the following books.
1. The Aryan Invasion Theory and Indian Nationalism (1993) <tt>By</tt> Shrikant G. Talageri (Voice of India)
2. The Astronomical Code of India (1992) <tt>By</tt> Subhash Kak
3. Vedic Aryans and the Origins of Civilization (1995) <tt>By</tt> N.S. Rajaram and David Frawley (World Heritage Press)
4. Aryan Invasion of India: The Myth and the Truth <tt>By</tt> N.S. Rajaram (Voice of India Publication)
5. Indigenous Indians: Agastya to Ambedkar (1993) <tt>By</tt> Koenraad Elst
6. New Light on The Aryan Problem: Manthan Oct. 1994 (Journal of Deendayal Research Institute)
7. Dawn and Development of the Indus Civilization (1991) <tt>By</tt> S.R. Rao (Aditya Prakashan)


The readers are requested to use their discretion what original research the learned professor has presented [based totally on the secondary data !]


 
DrRajpalSingh said:
Friend,

The paper of Agrawal contains the following chronology without quoting any source to support as references given on the bottom are modern books not source books:

"
  1. Chronology of the pre-historic period of India
    • Vedic Age - 7000-4000 BC
    • End of Rig Vedic Age - 3750 BC
    • End of Ramayana - Mahabharat Period - 3000 BC
    • Development of Saraswati-Indus Civilization - 3000-2000 BC
    • Decline of Indus and Saraswati Civilization - 2200-1900 BC
    • Period of Complete chaos and migration - 2000-1500 BC
    • Period of evolution of syncretic Hindu culture - 1400 - 250 BC ...........................
Click to expand...

For arguments sake even if we accept the above chronological chart then Vedic Age started in 7000 BC and ended in 4000 BC. OKAY !

2. Then which age started ????
According to the learned author the Rigvedic Age ended in 3750 BC.
Does he not include Rigvedic Age in Vedic Age or probably he does not count Rigaveda as part of Vedas.

Vedic age means the period of history when Vedic literature including Four Vedas, Upvedas, Samhitas, Brahmanas etc were created by the risies of the yore and constitutes two parts for the study of the period as 1. Rigvedic period, and 2. Later Vedic period

Same may be applied to other bifurcation given by him.

To sum up, less said, the better !
 
nrao said:
This link will make Narhari Achar go crazy. Like him, it also relies on astronomical readings but arrives at a much earlier date:

Mahabharat war started 16th Oct.

Abhimanyu killed 28th Oct. 5561 BC.

End of War 2nd November 5561 B.C.

Not only that he did a favour by providing Ramayan's date too:

Here under is provided a short table dates of important Mahabharat events in years. (Dates and Tithis in years in Rama Samvat assuming Shri Rama Samvat 1st January. 1 equivalent to 1st Jan 7323 B.C. Rama's birth date has been conclusively proved to be 4th Dec. 7323 B.C.( "Vastav Ramayan").

Another important date, which is not to be missed and proven by astronomical dates also:
Dinner to Brahmins 29th Sept.

Another link on the same site provides following eye catching dates:
(http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_agrawal.html)

Vedic Age - 7000-4000 BC
End of Rig Vedic Age - 3750 BC
End of Ramayana - Mahabharat Period - 3000 BC
Development of Saraswati-Indus Civilization - 3000-2000 BC
Decline of Indus and Saraswati Civilization - 2200-1900 BC
Period of Complete chaos and migration - 2000-1500 BC
Period of evolution of syncretic Hindu culture - 1400 - 250 BC
Click to expand...

Friend,

What a wonderful piece of research showing Mahabharata battle preceded [ 5561 BC] end of Rigvedic period 3750 BC!!!!

A few questions arise in mind after going through the contents of your post like, What sort of chaos occurred and who created this chaotic condition during 2000 B C 1500 B C leading to migration and whose migration ?What is 'syncretic Hindu Culture'? kindly share with us please.

Thanks.
 
Some additional noteworthy dates which are useful for discussing chronology of Indian History:

Orientalists, like to point to the date of 1400 BCE and later for the Aryan invasion pointing to presence of iron around 1200 BCE or later, supposedly brought in by 'Aryans'. Since Harappans are considered as pre-iron, this fits in with their model, as Aryans are credited with introducing iron into India, via northwest.

However, Rakesh Tiwari's article back in 2003, points to presence of iron in UP as far back as 1800 BCE, pointing to an indigenous development of the metal:

http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/077/Ant0770536.htm
Here is the link to the full paper:

http://antiquity.ac.uk/projgall/tewari/tewari.pdf


In addition, there is also reported presence of Steel, in and around 900 BCE (from an area which is not even considered part of the Harappan civ), as reported by Deshpande, Mohanty and Shinde (wikipedia and other online source will provide a date of 400 BCE or later for steel in India, of course introduced by outsiders once again):

http://cs-test.ias.ac.in/cs/Downloads/article_id_099_05_0636_0639_0.pdf
 
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nrao said:
Some additional noteworthy dates which are useful for discussing chronology of Indian History:

Orientalists, like to point to the date of 1400 BCE and later for the Aryan invasion pointing to presence of iron around 1200 BCE or later, supposedly brought in by 'Aryans'. Since Harappans are considered as pre-iron, this fits in with their model, as Aryans are credited with introducing iron into India, via northwest.

However, Rakesh Tiwari's article back in 2003, points to presence of iron in UP as far back as 1800 BCE, pointing to an indigenous development of the metal:

http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/077/Ant0770536.htm

In addition, there is also reported presence of Steel, in and around 900 BCE (from an area which is not even considered part of the Harappan civ), as reported by Deshpande, Mohanty and Shinde (wikipedia and other online source will provide a date of 400 BCE or later for steel in India, of course introduced by outsiders once again):

http://cs-test.ias.ac.in/cs/Downloads/article_id_099_05_0636_0639_0.pdf
Click to expand...

Good information on the starting of mass use of iron and steel in India. But it does not throw direct light on the question of the migration or emigration of Aryans.
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
Good information on the starting of mass use of iron and steel in India. But it does not throw direct light on the question of the migration or emigration of Aryans.
Click to expand...

It does if 1400-1200 BCE are the accepted dates of immigration into India and assumption that the immigrants brought iron with them, else it does not. Although, one can say that iron can be found locally and immigrats could have also brought it.

It is also argued that Rigved was pre-iron age (I will try to get some information on it), which will also mean an earlier dating of it, something like pre 1800-1500 BCE.
 
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I missed this earlier. I am not sure, if you are asking me to clarify something and why? The whole reason I posted it was to point out silly dates.
You should ask the authors of those articles and not me.

DrRajpalSingh said:
Friend,

What a wonderful piece of research showing Mahabharata battle preceded [ 5561 BC] end of Rigvedic period 3750 BC!!!!

A few questions arise in mind after going through the contents of your post like, What sort of chaos occurred and who created this chaotic condition during 2000 B C 1500 B C leading to migration and whose migration ?What is 'syncretic Hindu Culture'? kindly share with us please.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
nrao said:
I missed this earlier. I am not sure, if you are asking me to clarify something and why? The whole reason I posted it was to point out silly dates.
You should ask the authors of those articles and not me.
Click to expand...

Friend,

When a person has given the link, his job is over. Therefore, the questions are automatically addressed to the original author of the article.

There is nothing in my post which leads you to say : ''You should ask the authors of those articles and not me.''

I had just pointed out the new point in the research in very simple words. So far as I think, none has the right to dub these dates as 'silly' or 'wise'; the author might have committed some error of judgement somewhere while calculating the ancient chronology.and there is another possibility that he might have dug out some reliable sources to support his findings that Mahabharata preceded Rigvedic period !!!!

If so, he is welcome to share his sources and findings, we are open to new ideas and findings and gladly would make necessary correction in our approach to ancient history, if convincing sources are put forward because we are collecting the necessary information on this site for finalization by the participants through their willing participation.

Hence, I had just pointed out the newness in his findings that is all.

Thanks
 
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DrRajpalSingh said:
Thanks friend for suggesting links for the desired information.

Could you help us in understanding the words Aryavarata, Uttar Kuru/Dakshin Kuru and Madhya Desh used in ancient literature.
Click to expand...
Adhyan jari hai parantu nishkarsh thoda door hai. Filhaal agar aap is nakshe ko dekhen to isme Rigved ki nadiyon ko darshaya gaya hai. Isme madhya asia ki koi nadi nahin milti hai. Isse kya arth nikalna chaiye? Iska source yeh link hai: http://www.tri-murti.com/ancientindia/rigHistory/ch4.htm


View attachment 16367
 
Romar said:
Adhyan jari hai parantu nishkarsh thoda door hai. Filhaal agar aap is nakshe ko dekhen to isme Rigved ki nadiyon ko darshaya gaya hai. Isme madhya asia ki koi nadi nahin milti hai. Isse kya arth nikalna chaiye? Iska source yeh link hai: http://www.tri-murti.com/ancientindia/rigHistory/ch4.htm


View attachment 16367
Click to expand...

url main to doh vipreet cheeje likhi hain:

Apaya ke aas pas center of the earth hai aur Kasi UP bhi. Kon sa center hai.

inka mat hai ki chatha mandal sabse purana hai. aisa kyon?

agar Bharat kasi raja hai to phir uske yudh karne ke bare main kya jaankari likhi hai? uski sena kis raaste se nikalti hai uska vivran hai kya? agar woh kasi si uthkar yudd karne punjab mein aata hai, toh phir jaroor raste ki jaankari di hogi.

Kya JahnAvi or JAhnAvi ko devnagri mein likh kar batayenge kuch samaj mein nahin aya. Not sure, when there is Hindi in devnagri, why is the need to transliterate it in latin alphabet, cannot make out anything. झनावी है या झानवी है या कुछ और |

Isse pehle, aapne upar, #124 mein purab ki aur palayan bhi likha tha:
"Ayu migrated eastwards. His (people) are the Kuru-Pancalas and the Kasi-Videhas. This is the Ayava (migration). Amavasu migrated westwards. His (people) are the Ghandhari, Parsu and Aratta. This is the Amavasu (migration)." uska kya?
 
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Romar said:
Adhyan jari hai parantu nishkarsh thoda door hai. Filhaal agar aap is nakshe ko dekhen to isme Rigved ki nadiyon ko darshaya gaya hai. Isme madhya asia ki koi nadi nahin milti hai. Isse kya arth nikalna chaiye? Iska source yeh link hai: http://www.tri-murti.com/ancientindia/rigHistory/ch4.htm


View attachment 16367
Click to expand...

Good points raised but little prgress made to settle the divergent points/opinion on the issues being discussed !

For example: The place of the battle of Haryuppa identified in Haryana seems very amusing !

The identification of Kurukshetra on the basis of epic Mahabharata under the Rig Vedic Geography is wonderful tool used by the learned author to prove Aryans as Indian.

Other points raised by Mr. Rao also need clarification at the hands of scholars.

Regards,
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
Good points raised but little prgress made to settle the divergent points/opinion on the issues being discussed !

For example: The place of the battle of Haryuppa identified in Haryana seems very amusing !

The identification of Kurukshetra on the basis of epic Mahabharata under the Rig Vedic Geography is wonderful tool used by the learned author to prove Aryans as Indian.

Other points raised by Mr. Rao also need clarification at the hands of scholars.

Regards,
Click to expand...

Rajpal ji,

In all fairness I think Srikanth Talageri's book is extremely informative, in fact I will call it radical or revolutionary. Compared to the overall thesis of the book, my questions or objections will appear superficial, although would like to see them answered if possible. Even if they are answered or not, the overall thesis of the book will probably not alter much.

Although BB Lal's migration pattern (Ranbir Tomar, above had posted and I quoted him) differs from Talageri's, however both of them do offer very strong argument for westward migration out of India's after the battle of ten kings (we should also discuss if it was really a battle or not but that is a different discussion). Also the idea that Aryans, are an actual group and not a linguistic only group, and they are nothing but Puru tribe is quite startling too. This book should be read by everybody concerned with history of ancient India or Vedic history and Jats as well.

I do look forward to any objections if they are available. One such objection and how it was dealt with appeared here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8116734/Talageri
 
nrao said:
Rajpal ji,

In all fairness I think Srikanth Talageri's book is extremely informative, in fact I will call it radical or revolutionary. Compared to the overall thesis of the book, my questions or objections will appear superficial, although would like to see them answered if possible. Even if they are answered or not, the overall thesis of the book will probably not alter much.

Although BB Lal's migration pattern (Ranbir Tomar, above had posted and I quoted him) differs from Talageri's, however both of them do offer very strong argument for westward migration out of India's after the battle of ten kings (we should also discuss if it was really a battle or not but that is a different discussion). Also the idea that Aryans, are an actual group and not a linguistic only group, and they are nothing but Puru tribe is quite startling too. This book should be read by everybody concerned with history of ancient India or Vedic history and Jats as well.

I do look forward to any objections if they are available. One such objection and how it was dealt with appeared here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8116734/Talageri
Click to expand...

Friend,

It seems so after the advent of the Aryans in India, however, read his chapters on the Indo-Iranians and on Bhargus etc. These two chapters provide much food for thoughtful analysis of the issue. Then, so long as chronology is not fixed for the Four Deva-Asura battles mentioned in literature is not fixed, nothing can be sad with certainty.

All the friends are bringing newer studies forward on the issue which is a very encouraging sign and kindles the hope that we are marching forward with each passing day towards reaching the goal. But much effort is needed to solve the puzzle of original abode and identification of the place names with their chronological order of the events. Before the goal is achieved, we cannot say who writes right things and who does say wrong things on the issue. Everyone is engaged in contributing in the discussion on the basis of sources accessible and available to him or her. Therefore, as of now I am not in a position to jump to final conclusion as my quest for more information continues.

Please keep options open and continue to search for more information on the issue.

Thanks.
 
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