Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[drrajpalsingh]

Now, we will take up the views of various authors on the date of epoch making event,

Mahabharata Battle, and after reading them the readers are free to derive their own

conclusions on the basis of sources of research at their command. The readers must go

for details to the books by concerned authors cited herein under:

Bal Ganga Dhar Tilak ["Gita Rahasya -Hindi", pp 548-552] arrived at the conclusion

that Mahabharata Battle was fought in c. 1400 B.C.

According to Mausala Parava, Book 16 MBT, the disctruction of Andhakas, Virshnis and Bhojas took place after 36 years of the Mahabharata. An extract is reproduced for the benefit of researchers to further investigate the event:
Janamejaya said: "Indeed, O holy one, how was it that the Andhakas along with Vrishnis, and those great car-warriors, the Bhojas, met with destruction in the very sight of Vasudeva?"
Vaishampayana continued: "When the thirty-sixth year was reached (after the great battle) a great calamity overtook the Vrishnis. Impelled by Time, they all met with destruction in consequence of the iron bolt."

What does this Iron bolt refer to is the main point.Was it some volcanic eruption or some other unusual event to which further evidence is detailed :

"When the thirty-sixth year (after the battle) was reached, the delighter of the Kurus, Yudhishthira, beheld many unusual portents. Winds, dry and strong, and showering gravels, blew from every side. Birds began to wheel, making circles from right to left. The great rivers ran in opposite directions. The horizon on every side seemed to be always covered withfog. Meteors, showering (blazing) coals, fell on the Earth from the sky. The Sun’s disc, O king, seemed to be always covered with dust. At its rise, the great luminary of day was shorn of splendour and seemed to be crossed by headless trunks (of human beings). Fierce circles of light were seen every day around both the Sun and the Moon. These circles showed three hues. Their edges seemed to be black and rough and ashy-red in colour. These and many other omens, foreshadowing fear and danger, were seen, O king, and filled the hearts of men with anxiety. A little while after, the Kuru king Yudhishthira heard of the wholesale carnage of the Vrishnis in consequence of the iron bolt. The son of Pandu, hearing that only Vasudeva and Rama had escaped with life, summoned his brothers and took counsel with them as to what they should do. Meeting with one another, they became greatly distressed upon hearing that the Vrishnis had met with destruction through the Brahmana’s rod of chastisement. The death of Vasudeva, like the drying up of the ocean, those heroes could not believe. In fact the destruction of the wielder ofSaranga was incredible to them. Informed of the incident about the iron bolt, the Pandavas became filled with grief and sorrow. In fact, they sat down, utterly cheerless and penetrated with blank despair." for details--http://www.jatland.com/home/Mausala_Parva/Book_16_Section_1

Could some one elucidate the reference or provide clue to and connection with the chronology of ancient history of India.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

10

Sitanath Pradhan [Chronology of Ancient India, pp.262-269] ascribes 1151 B C as the year for Mahabharata battle.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

11.

H.A. Phadke [ Haryana --Ancient and Medieval] says that the battle of Mahabharata was fought in 850 B.C.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Now, we will take up the views of various authors on the date of epoch making event,

Mahabharata Battle, and after reading them the readers are free to derive their own

conclusions on the basis of sources of research at their command. The readers must go

for details to the books by concerned authors cited herein under:

Bal Ganga Dhar Tilak ["Gita Rahasya -Hindi", pp 548-552] arrived at the conclusion

that Mahabharata Battle was fought in c. 1400 B.C.

We had started the discussion by posting Tilak's above quoted view regarding the timeline of the Mahabharata battle. Some of the prominent views have already been listed and there are many more writers who have expressed their findings from time to time on the issue.

On going through various monographs/papers by the erudite scholars, it is found that the time line of Mahabharata is spread between c. 3100 B.C. to c.850 B.C. mainly due to the reason that most of the authorities on the subject have taken only one or two sources and systems/methods of fixation of ancient chronology into consideration and have totally neglected or overlooked other factors/sources while arriving at conclusion in their studies.

This has led to such divergence of opinion and a sort of mess for general observers as nothing seems plausible!

But the efforts of the scholars continue to solve this chronology puzzle and have come up with their results based on all the available tools of research and sources. Here we intend to present before the readers the views expressed in a study on the Date of the Mahabharata Battle to acquaint them about the recent developments in the field.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dr. S.B. Roy [Date of Mahabharata Battle, The Academic Press, Gurgaon, Haryana, (1976)] has brought out a well argued monograph on the issue. He has critically weighed the significance of system of Chronology fixed by Western Indologists before preparing a frame-work of chronology of Indian Proto history. Then he has taken up Baudhayana and the Sutra literature and prepared comparative lists of the ancient Risis and royal dynasties of the Kali Age by using ancient Indian literary sources including the Puranas and the epics. He critically analyses the growth of the volume of Jaya/Bharata into Mahabharata and has compared it with Yajnavalkya, Baudhayana and Panini's treatises.

At this stage he starts to use the astronomical, archaeological and data derived from the original Jaya.

Before arriving at some tentative conclusion on the chronology he uses scientific tools to verify his statements.

He is of the view that the most probable date of Mahabharata battle is c. 1400 B.C.

This is a scientifically carried out research and looking at our present state of the knowledge on the issue, the date suggested by him, seems plausible. It is important to note that his finding is firmly founded in view of the synchronisation he has established with the two earlier acceptable cross links related with the Historic dates connected earlier with Divodasa and later with Ashoka's times History. They have already been posted in this very thread earlier.

Views/comments of the readers on the issue are welcome.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Under this thread regarding fixation of the Chronology of Prehistory of Ancient India, so far we have succeeded in solving three puzzles:
1. The chronology of Divodasa c.2000 BC to 1970 B.C.
2. Asoka the Maurya Jat ruler.
3.The Mahabharata battle c. 1400 B.C.
for ready reference all the three dates are given under this post for cross check, further reference, newer analysis and re-examination in the light of fresh evidence or reinterpretation of the existing data. If this is done it would be a great service to the cause of the historical writings on India.

Continuing his study on the Chronological frame work of Indian Chronology, S. B. Ray quoting from the list prepared on the basis of Pargiter, Ancient Indian Historical Traditions of the Kings given at pp. 144-149 and of the rishis given at pp. 191-2 together, has drawn appropriate inferences.

He is of the view that the Vedic hymns were kept intact from the times that Shaunaka, Ashwalayana and Katyayana prepared their indexes (c.1320 B.C.): Not even half syllable has been changed in them and they are like a huge stone inscription (or tape records) kept intact since 1300 B.C."

S.B. Roy, Ancient India--a Chronological Study......, p.62 quoted in his book, Date of the Mahabharata Battle, p. 171.

Regarding the Middle Vedic Age [chronology about this period has already been quoted in above posts], Shri SB Roy has successfully established cross contacts for this period and has concluded his discussion by enumerating various conclusions as given on pp.187-191.

To sum up the gist of his finding is :

We get another good effort by the learned author regarding MBT battle charology :

Ashoka and Antiok, the yona raja in c. 257 B.C.

Divodasa of Helmund, Indatu of Ur, Hashrava of North Iran and Emissum of Larsa provide cross contacts in c.2000--1970 B.C.

The chronological infrastructure of the protohistoric India should satisfy these two fixed points.

Comments supported by relevant sources are welcome on the issue.

Thanks.

-------and the third chronology established is regarding Mahabharata battle i.e. it occurred in c.1400 B.C.

Dr. S.B. Roy [Date of Mahabharata Battle, The Academic Press, Gurgaon, Haryana, (1976)] has brought out a well argued monograph on the issue. He has critically weighed the significance of system of Chronology fixed by Western Indologists before preparing a frame-work of chronology of Indian Proto history. Then he has taken up Baudhayana and the Sutra literature and prepared comparative lists of the ancient Risis and royal dynasties of the Kali Age by using ancient Indian literary sources including the Puranas and the epics. He critically analyses the growth of the volume of Jaya/Bharata into Mahabharata and has compared it with Yajnavalkya, Baudhayana and Panini's treatises.

At this stage he starts to use the astronomical, archaeological and data derived from the original Jaya.

Before arriving at some tentative conclusion on the chronology he uses scientific tools to verify his statements.

He is of the view that the most probable date of Mahabharata battle is c. 1400 B.C.

This is a scientifically carried out research and looking at our present state of the knowledge on the issue, the date suggested by him, seems plausible. It is important to note that his finding is firmly founded in view of the synchronisation he has established with the two earlier acceptable cross links related with the Historic dates connected earlier with Divodasa and later with Ashoka's times History. They have already been posted in this very thread earlier.

Views/comments of the readers on the issue are welcome.

We shall take up some other important puzzle regarding chronology of Indian history in the posts that follow.

Kindly join discussion and extend help to select some appropriate topic for further discussion on the chronology of the Ancient Indian History.

Thanks.

 

[maddhan1979]

Under this thread regarding fixation of the Chronology of Prehistory of Ancient India, so far we have succeeded in solving three puzzles:
1. The chronology of Divodasa c.2000 BC to 1970 B.C.
2. Asoka the Maurya Jat ruler.
3.The Mahabharata battle c. 1400 B.C.
for ready reference all the three dates are given under this post for cross check, further reference, newer analysis and re-examination in the light of fresh evidence or reinterpretation of the existing data. If this is done it would be a great service to the cause of the historical writings on India.




-------and the third chronology established is regarding Mahabharata battle i.e. it occurred in c.1400 B.C.



We shall take up some other important puzzle regarding chronology of Indian history in the posts that follow.

Kindly join discussion and extend help to select some appropriate topic for further discussion on the chronology of the Ancient Indian History.

Thanks.

Hardwork Dr. Rajpal. I will be satisfied the day, i can see a concrete evidence, in form of archaeology and hard material facts. Rest seems fluid words. Best of luck on your further works.

When we have cities dating back to 5000 years and older still standing in form or archaeological evidence, then why do we not have evidence of archaeological artifacts connected with Mahabharata?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Hardwork Dr. Rajpal. I will be satisfied the day, i can see a concrete evidence, in form of archaeology and hard material facts. Rest seems fluid words. Best of luck on your further works.

When we have cities dating back to 5000 years and older still standing in form or archaeological evidence, then why do we not have evidence of archaeological artifacts connected with Mahabharata?

Thanks.

Your insistence on archaeological evidence is right at its own place; but

Friend, this is to inform you that archaeology is one of many evidences

and not the only source used to study the past chronology.

If you have any other date/timeline for MBT battle you are welcome to share.

Thanks and regards,

 

[maddhan1979]

Thanks.

Your insistence on archaeological evidence is right at its own place; but

Friend, this is to inform you that archaeology is one of many evidences

and not the only source used to study the past chronology.

If you have any other date/timeline for MBT battle you are welcome to share.

Thanks and regards,

Dear Sir,
Sorry to say, i have almost no knowledge of such dates. I also have hard time connecting with literature, dates and other documents connected with any religious feeling. I am more interested in fats that verify any said statements in any religious book. Okey, i want to believe MBT happened, what then? Should i start using "Gita" or any other book related with it to make money and preach people or get more books published out of already available litrature??
hmmm,,,i think this is not for me,,,i am more happy, when i see some artifacts and concrete evidence rather than lame words. Okey, we have Kurushatra, we have Hastinapur, we have Indraprastha but where are the walls of the city, where are the forts, where are the weapons used in the fight???

Till now for ages, such stories have become more of making money and creating empires in the name of people who lived long ago. We tend to forget our present and give power to people who extract money in the name of anything they can encash.
Real earners of the society never even get their daily food at time. Therefore somehow, i tend to stay away from such so called dates stated by someone who did not even ever hold pinch of earth from the land where MBT was faught.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dear Sir,
What is MBT battle?
Thanks

Generally used as abbreviation for Mahabharata.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dear Sir,
Sorry to say, i have almost no knowledge of such dates. I also have hard time connecting with literature, dates and other documents connected with any religious feeling. I am more interested in fats that verify any said statements in any religious book. Okey, i want to believe MBT happened, what then? Should i start using "Gita" or any other book related with it to make money and preach people or get more books published out of already available litrature??
hmmm,,,i think this is not for me,,,i am more happy, when i see some artifacts and concrete evidence rather than lame words. Okey, we have Kurushatra, we have Hastinapur, we have Indraprastha but where are the walls of the city, where are the forts, where are the weapons used in the fight???

Till now for ages, such stories have become more of making money and creating empires in the name of people who lived long ago. We tend to forget our present and give power to people who extract money in the name of anything they can encash.
Real earners of the society never even get their daily food at time. Therefore somehow, i tend to stay away from such so called dates stated by someone who did not even ever hold pinch of earth from the land where MBT was faught.

Enjoy and live happy life in your own chosen style; best wishes !!!

The archaeologists are busy in digging out the ancient sites related with the Mahabharata; let us hope some break up in not distant future.

 

[nrao]

Dr Singh


The young gentleman has been asking you for some time to answer the questions, reproduced below.

1. ' Kahan avesta mein Saraswati nadi ka varnan hai?


English: Where is the reference to the Sarasvati ( river) in the Avesta.


2. Kahan avesta mein divodas ka janam Iran mein likha hai?


ENGLISH: Where in the Avesta is the reference that Divodas was born in Iran?


For further clarity, he is asking for the original references.

Please answer the questions, with evidence

Ravi Chaudhary

Welcome Chaudhary Sahib,

It is good of you that you have addressed two direct questions out of the views expressed during the course of discussion raised by certain participants.

I have noted the same and try to find out their answers from original sources in due course of time.

Till then, bye !

Thanks and regards,

It has been over a month since you promised to check original sources and get back. Do you need more time? I was not sure what due course of time is supposed to mean.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

It has been over a month since you promised to check original sources and get back. Do you need more time? I was not sure what due course of time is supposed to mean.

Friend,



Kindly inform him that the questions raised have already stand replied vide:http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...gy-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page34

Meanwhile, translated versions available to me on the topic are not acceptable to you at present. So I am now on look out for original texts of AVESTA and VEDAS. As and when they are received I will immediately reply the points raised. Till then show patience and bear with us or if you have original texts of the two kindly share.

In the meantime, please see that if you have any question, put direct question and get direct reply on the chronology issues discussed so far.

Thanks.

 

[nrao]

Friend,



Kindly inform him that the questions raised have already stand replied vide:http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...gy-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page34

Meanwhile, translated versions available to me on the topic are not acceptable to you at present. So I am now on look out for original texts of AVESTA and VEDAS. As and when they are received I will immediately reply the points raised. Till then show patience and bear with us or if you have original texts of the two kindly share.

In the meantime, please see that if you have any question, put direct question and get direct reply on the chronology issues discussed so far.

Thanks.

Ok. I will remind you again in a month's time since your search for original source seems to be taking long time.

Meanwhile, were you able to find out anything about Bharagava's quotes, as noted here over 3 months ago:

Friend,

Thanks for the post on the quote of Bhargava's quotation from Rig Veda 1.100.18. I will check it out and then try to make out what is the real position/ difference between both the quotes.

Thanks.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=332750&viewfull=1#post332750

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Ok. I will remind you again in a month's time since your search for original source seems to be taking long time.

Meanwhile, were you able to find out anything about Bharagava's quotes, as noted here over 3 months ago:

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=332750&viewfull=1#post332750

Friend, Reply of the second line first. Please read and share your findings with us later on.

Not sure what those lines are supposed to convey but I found this from Bhargava: "the Aryans originally lived in the valleys of the river Ghorband and Panjshir to the south of the Hindu Kush range... from this region one branch seems to have ultimately settled in the various countries of Europe, while another branch migrated to Saptasindhu" pg. 49, PL Bhargava, India in the Vedic Age: A History of Aryan Expansion in India, Upper India Publishing House Pvt Ltd, 2nd edition, 1971 (first published 1956).

Do you think this is the original place of the Aryans that you keep referring to as abode, as per Bhargava, who is a known invasion-theorist (although an internal invasion-theorist as opposed to external-invasion theorist).

I have another example from Bhargava regarding a conclusion using a RigVedic shlok and word, pg 236:

I think he is using the word svitniyebhih when referring to a shlok from RigVed I.100.18:

I found that particular shlok from online RigVed produced in Latin (link): http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...RV01.html#H100
From Latin - RigVed I.100.18 - sánat kṣétraṃ sákhibhiḥ śvitniyébhiḥ

When I looked it up in देवनागरी - RigVed I.100.18 above word in bold is actually: shvilyebhih (श्विल्येभि:)

Would they mean different things?

While we are on this topic, this link should not be missed. It prepares UPSC students for IAS and this page is for History for IAS Mains: Aryans and Vedic Period - Expansions of Aryans in India. I think they forgot to thank Dr Bhargava, when throwing light:

http://upscportal.com/civilservices...y/aryans-vedic-period/expansions-aryans-india

Kindly go to some good library and see for yourself from which edition, year of the publication and the publisher of the Rig Veda in Nagari Prof. Bhargava has derived the word as the list of bibiliography cited by him is too long and then cross check whether your or his quote is right. I am producing some hints to make your task easy.

Regarding the reference cited by you from Bhargava's Book under reference, this is to bring to your kind notice that he has further clarified use of the word 'svetyanc' :

p.236, f.n.3 as " RV VII, 33,1: 83,8. He goes on to state that "Some scholars take the word svityanc to mean 'clad in white' or 'white robed'. But the fact that the word 'svityanc' means White and not white-robed is proved by RV II,33,8 wherein Rudra is compared to a svityanc vrisabha i.e. White [not white-robed] bull.

He has mentioned in bibliography p.353 that he has used several volumes of Rigveda like Rigveda with commentary of Dayananda, Ajmer; Rigveda Ed. with Sayana's commentary by Vaidika Samsodhana Mandala, Poona, 1933-1951; Rigveda:Ed. by Satavalekar, Aundh, 1939.

In addition to this he has given names of various other translated versions for which you may refer to pp.353-358.

After going through all these texts referred to above, kindly share your findings with us.
Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Ok. I will remind you again in a month's time since your search for original source seems to be taking long time.

----------------

Friend,

Kindly note, none can fix time line to force a research scholar to go to repositories/archives in India and abroad to see the originals , and it is hoping against hope that one would follow the dictates of a fellow inquisitor.

If you cannot wait, as requested earlier, you are free to go and find out for yourself !

Thanks.

The Questions on the Chronology aspects discussed so far are welcome from the readers so as to keep the topic moving in the right direction.

 

[nrao]

Friend, Reply of the second line first. Please read and share your findings with us later on.

Kindly go to some good library and see for yourself from which edition, year of the publication and the publisher of the Rig Veda in Nagari Prof. Bhargava has derived the word as the list of bibiliography cited by him is too long and then cross check whether your or his quote is right. I am producing some hints to make your task easy.

Regarding the reference cited by you from Bhargava's Book under reference, this is to bring to your kind notice that he has further clarified use of the word 'svetyanc' :

p.236, f.n.3 as " RV VII, 33,1: 83,8. He goes on to state that "Some scholars take the word svityanc to mean 'clad in white' or 'white robed'. But the fact that the word 'svityanc' means White and not white-robed is proved by RV II,33,8 wherein Rudra is compared to a svityanc vrisabha i.e. White [not white-robed] bull.

He has mentioned in bibliography p.353 that he has used several volumes of Rigveda like Rigveda with commentary of Dayananda, Ajmer; Rigveda Ed. with Sayana's commentary by Vaidika Samsodhana Mandala, Poona, 1933-1951; Rigveda:Ed. by Satavalekar, Aundh, 1939.

In addition to this he has given names of various other translated versions for which you may refer to pp.353-358.

After going through all these texts referred to above, kindly share your findings with us.
Thanks.

Is he also quoting RigVed I.100.18. What is he mean in that slok?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Is he also quoting RigVed I.100.18. What is he mean in that slok?

Friend,

The book is in English and no Devanagari version is available on p. 236 of the point referred to by you.

Moreover the context does not pertain to the topic of thread.

The reference in the chapter deals with Social and Economic condition of the Vedic Age.

Thanks

 

[narenderkharb]

• ................posted in wrong thread.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

As referred to earlier in post 821, http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...gy-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page42 ,

the name of Dasaratha appears as contemporary/near contemporary of Divodasa and he is said to be his ally in his fight against the Asura enemies.

Does his fainting during the fight and saving by his wife Kaikeyi as alluded to in the Ramayana

has any historicity to find out the real position ? If this event of his participation in the war against

the Asura group is hinted then another important date line of the prehistory of India could be illuminated !

If someone having the information on the issue shares his research on the topic of discussion, he/she is welcome !

Thanks and regards