GOD! Are you there?

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Dear All,

The discussion is getting more and more motivating for me as I saw the increasing number of participants in it.

Really getting to what people think of such an issue and with what spirit always motivates you. Maybe I am from the minority (probably only one who is holding the stance against you ALL) but then the spirit has always encouraged to put up my views.

Putting my views on the latest postings.
Ramesh Lakra Bhai, I am not emphasizing that whether anybody has seen the God or not. My view is that if God is there, then why?

When we hypothesize, let God is there. God is only one. (everybody agrees to this!) Then why do Hindus say that there should be Mandir in Ayodhya. A Maszid is also a place of worshipping God. Only difference is the name by which we worship. Then why the destruction of maszid for building mandir?

I am really convinced that you will be using your wits to reply this. I have again used the term Hypothesis because I still am not being able to convince myself for so called meditation, unless I am convinced to the basics of the issue.

The core issue is again faith. I do believe that nature is the supreme force of the universe, and abiding by the natural laws learnt in my surrounding define my moral stand.

Again coming to the issue of atma. The soul of an individual is the reflection of the environment he has been brought up rather than an entity which as per your beliefs is static. That is why if two newly born babies are brought up in different environment they will have different moral standards. If a boy is brought up in an arya samaji environment, he will hate eating meat etc., but if the same is brought up in the areas where meat is a daily meal, he wouldn't consider it a sin.

If you think that believing in God is the sole objective of one's life and else it is a sin, I am doing this sin for last 10 years or so, and I am sure I have never put my head or my stand down by any standard even in a society dominated by the God-believing people.

Budh ji, I agree everything can't be argues by logic or science, otherwise the life would be too much complex. And that is where we go by convention.

In your example, what if the friend met, insisted, but the passenger still went up with his journey and dies. Was it the fault of the friend the he let him die. Please don't say that the person was bound to die, friend could not do anything.

Sheorayan Ji, again kudos for maintaining the spirit of an positive debate. It is always the requirement of each and every event to bring out something concrete. Infact for me results are subjective personally, but I would really like anybody to bring out summary of the discussion atleast each week.

But again I argue against the last line. Why need the so called Gurus. I know for me what is right and what is wrong. You know what is right and what is wrong. Everybody participating in does know what they do mean, when they are writing. It is simply a matter of learning from each other. The same spirit should imply to the society as well. The so called Guru are only milking their own interests out of people's faith.
 
Rajinder Bhai,

Better late than never. Welcome aboard this nice discussion.

I agree scientific knowledge a still very much limited. But the so called philosophy is not only limited but impractical as well. That is the reason why I don't have faith in it.

I also agree to the so called soft substances like feelings, faith, motivation etc. I also believe in the supreme force, but I don't name it imaginary God. I call it practical Nature.
 
Folks,

I would like to go on records saying that I am in Jitender's camp. Some of the issues can be argued but I am mostly (>90%) in agreement with Jitender's ideas so far. To me he has been putting a more convincing argument.

I do believe that we are just part of the process of evolution. Evolution is a property of the nature. It is millions probably billions years of evolution and can't be explained so easily. We just started to understand it only a few thousand years ago. It is possible that a similar attempt had been done earlier and foiled by nature.

I believe that humanity is the best religion - humanity not just towards humans but the entire nature.

The only issue I would argue on is the Guru. A true Guru will not ask you to believe in something blindly but will pass on his/her wisdom and experience without asking anything or minimal in return.

Doing a good deed is always good in the long run. That you and I learn by experience. I would never give up a chance to do a good deed.

I don't believe in life after death.

Most of the argument I have heard in favor of God is what you would hear from a pujari.

Yes, I would agree that meditation or whatever can change the state of your mind and provide rest to your mind is good. But so would a good night's sleep.

Yes, science has limitations and that is why we all are working on it. In fact science is in its infancy. We have only scratched the surface of the iceberg. We have answers to a few things and in fullness of time we will have answers to so many more.

Today people like me and Jitender are in minority and that itself explains to some extent so much disturbance in the world in the name of race and religion. But a time will come when we will be in majority. I am not saying that the disturbance will stop. At that time the clever (mean) minds will find something else to exploite. Again that is all natural and nature will take its course.

There are just so many variables in the equation that the science doesn't have a formula to model to predict the future. But it is in the works and may take a while, maybe next thousand years given the exponential speed of discovery in the science. But I have a fear that we might just be a little too late by then.

Well, I am a true believer in nature. Some of my messages are:

- Save the trees.
- Save the rainforest.
- Preserve the water.
- Don't spoil the environment.
- Take it easy.

-ajmer
 
Bhuvanesh Mirdha (Oct 30, 2003 12:56 p.m.):

Hiten Raja : That is it sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH.

That is all that keeps things moving & alive.
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Bhuvanesh Ji,
A nice article right on the time!
Thanks for sharing it.
Faith n faith,
nothing but the faith only - keeps things rolling.
Yes, it is very personal in nature mine can not be yours and vice versa. One can have it during meditation while other simply in his/her deeds.
Lets call it mother nature, God, or something else as per our mental setup and apply our goodness and energy for a better tomorrow.
 
GOD! Are You there?

Bhuvanesh Mirdha (Oct 30, 2003 12:56 p.m.):
In this whole I would like to express my views in the form of an imaginary discussion created....hope it would able to lit the path in this very ethical debate.
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Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Hiten Raja : That is it sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH.

That is all that keeps things moving & alive.
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Wonderfully narrated. It is the Faith. There is no question of why God is there and where is he! It is simply one's faith. God is not confined in any buildings - simply because faith does not sit inside a building. It is in you! These organised gathering generally have nothing to do with finding God. These are nice social functions. Destroying buildings and fighting in the name of God is nothing but destruction and fight - it has nothing to do with God. The nice thing about faith is that either you have it or you don't. Either way is fine so long as it suits you. There is really no fight or debate over it.
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All,
I read views of many of u Yajvir Ji, Jitender Ji, Ajmer Ji, Dr Narender, Budh Ji, Subha ji, Anil Ji, Uday Ji, Balraj JI and Dudee sahib.
It is very interesting topic and I will give my input also.
Faith: Blind faith is only harmful, we have to start with logic. Jitender has faith in science, hence faith in God will come only when it will make sense to him
Reincarnation: In a Gujrat village near Surat a woman was pergnant. She was hit by the cow with horn. She started bleeding and the leg of the baby was visible outside. A doctor was called, he was helpless. An old lady came, she said I need a needle and a lamp. She made the needle hot and touched the baby. The baby took the leg inside, she was not taught by Jitender Singh.
Karma: The way karma is taught now a days is not correct. Because of this we where ruled by others. Faith in Jotish is the biggest problem.
The friend in his house and he missed the bus which had accident is nothing to do with karma. They all events taking place randomly, it is our free will, we all are free to perform our actions. Let me tell your death is not fixed.
Some car comes and hits you, you die. No body know about future including God.
Please remember we are all free for actions.
When I read newspaper, my wife tells me to do some other work. She is not dictated by God.
It is not the business of God to decide our death. God has so many things to do.
Let me explain karma. When a creature dies, based on the karma of this life (only if human being) and some karmas of previous lifes, God decides the rebirth family of a suitable creature or Moksha (free from life death life cycle). From the birth of a human being, during childhood, he/she will not perform karmas. Karmas are there for parents and relatives etc. Karmas meter starts only after he/she starts understanding things. He/She can perform good, nuteral or bad karmas. Other than human beings, no other creatures perform karmas. We are effected by good, nuetral and bad karmas of others as all of us are free to perform our karmas.
We may or may not be punished at home or society fairly or unfairly. It is all like share market, which Budh Ji explained.
There are three eternal entities and they have their own properties. they are not dependent on some bodies faith. They are God, Soul and Nature. They were always there, are there and will be their. They have no cause. God has not created Nature and Souls.
God: It has three fundamental properties: Sat (existance), Chit(inteligent) and Anand (bilss)
Soul: It has two fundamental properties: Sat (existance) and Chit(inteligent). It is missing anand and try to get enjoyment from nature or God.
Nature: It has two fundamental properties: Sat (existance) and some Anand (taste). It has no inteligence.
 
Dear Bhuvnesh Ji, Budh Ji and Dr. Dudee,

Clearly it is the Faith that is associating people to the God. I still do argue about having such faith, if it is with good spirit. But what is happening is that this faith has become more or less a method of befooling people rather than keeping up the spirit of your spirituality and driving people do goods.

Again, I would like to get your suggestion on the Ayodhya Mandir issue. Won't it be okay to keep up the maszid, since it is also a place to worship God? Your spirituality says God is one. Please don't skip answering to this question again. And please do take the issue with the spirit of the debate and not the way that I want to hurt the feeling of you people.

Your turn please!!!
 
Dear Ishwar Ji,

Please don't take that the science is taught only in the class room. Anything reasoned out in the physical or logical domains is science.

Again, as Bhai Ajmer Ji have stated that science is still in its infancy and it has a long way to go out.

I also disagree that Nature in not intelligent. All intelligence is carved out of the Nature. Did you learned to see the things out of the nature? It may be that the literature you read might be stating that do believe in God because Nature is not intelligent. But I owe my existence, knowledge and intelligence wholly to the Nature.

Again in your demonstration, why do you think that the baby took the leg in, and not took the leg with the hot needle. Simply due to natural laws.

Again, science do not need to learned in the classroom. It can be learned anywhere with a good observing head. Do you think that mere being a doctor, a person must be knowing every aspect of that profession. If I don't study my subjects with interest I may still clear the exams but it may be that I am not aware of all the aspects of my subject.
 
Dear Mr. Jitender Singh:

I will attempt to explain my views (and facts that will possibly bring comfort to human race) in a brief and direct manner. I will do it with brevity of a professorial discourse.

1. Don't tell lies, Don't hurt others, Be honest, Be kind, Help others, Do your duty sincerely, Take a few moments before you go to sleep and think about things you did during the day which you probably should not have done, Remain honest to your own conscience as you can’t hide the facts from self.
Once you live a life following these basic principles, then you are a spiritual person in the truest sense. Call yourself what you wish - Atheist, Agnostic or a Believer.

2. When we don’t understand or we can’t explain some phenomenon, then we associate it to some power beyond our comprehension. Call it Nature, God or a Sense beyond us - or something else you wish.

2. There has been more bloodshed in this world in the name of religion than by any other cause. Going to buildings has nothing to do with finding God for believers, these are social gatherings which generally have been breeding grounds of frictions and hatred in societies.

3. Organized religion has nothing to do with God ( in my view)- otherwise we all contradict ourselves when we say that OURS in the only God and OURS in the only WAY to get to Him.

4. For believers and nonbelievers alike, there should be only one religion or principle: Love of Humanity.

5. In the case of Ayodhya or any other place of conflict like it, a good solution to the problem is to build a good school in that location AND make sure that students from ALL faiths and beliefs are enrolled and taught there.

Jitender Singh (Nov 02, 2003 05:26 a.m.):
Dear Bhuvnesh Ji, Budh Ji and Dr. Dudee,

Clearly it is the Faith that is associating people to the God. I still do argue about having such faith, if it is with good spirit. But what is happening is that this faith has become more or less a method of befooling people rather than keeping up the spirit of your spirituality and driving people do goods.

Again, I would like to get your suggestion on the Ayodhya Mandir issue. Won't it be okay to keep up the maszid, since it is also a place to worship God? Your spirituality says God is one. Please don't skip answering to this question again. And please do take the issue with the spirit of the debate and not the way that I want to hurt the feeling of you people.

Your turn please!!!
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dear jitendra,
You consider nature above everything---ok. What is nature? you must be knowing that everything in this world is made up of similar type of matter i.e. electrons , protons and neutrons or any further division of theirs. These are the parts of matter which can niether be created nor be destroyed. If the material is the same it must have been one at some time. It has taken different shapes latter on. Did the electrons had the intelligence to acquire different combinations to form different type atoms? NO. As the iron ore will remain as it is in the earth and it can not convert itself into a railway engine , similarly the matter can not change itself into intelligent objects. An external force is required to give it a perfact shape .
Laws are rules to make things systematic. Laws are to be made. We do not find any example of a law which has become itself. Similar is the case with the natural laws.
But in my opinion we must not accept anything just on the basis of belief. On this line i ask you a question.
What is nature? Is it JAD( senseless, which cannot take decision of ist own) ?
or is it CHETAN (having sense, can do work, keep on doing development)? If it chetan, what is that?
If you consider it JAD , how can you justify all the intelligent activities going on the earth.
If you consider it chetan , you will have to tell about that.
 
Dear jitendra,
We must not forget our history. We should know our history and learn lesson from the mistakes committed , should be aware of our capabilities and try to make more progress.
I am an arya samaji. i do not believe in idol worshiping. Still i am of the opinion of making a temple at Ayodhya if it really existed there. This is because the matter is related to the prestige of Hindus. If one has read the history he can have the knowledge of the happennings of the last 1000 years in India. How cruel were the muslims towards the hindus. How they destroyed the rich legacy of india. a number of temples were dashed to the ground , library of Takshshila (if you know something about that) ,how people were killed . It is like a horror story. It is their religion which asks them to finish the hindus.
Do you think if india hands over J & K to pak it will become a good friend of india. never .Their aim is to finish the Kaphirs and hindus are Kaphirs as per them. The same case is in india. If we do not look powerfull we will be finished. Gandhi ji's policy fail before them.
if the muslims destroy a temple today and build a masjid would you like to have a school openned then also?
 
Dear those who do not believe in god,
If you do not believe in god, you should not believe in re-birth and karamphal.
Don't tell lies, don't hurt others,be honest, be kind, help others , do your duty sincerely-----------OK-------but why always?
If i can get Rs 10 lakhs by telling a lie, then why shouldn't I?
I saw a person having met with an accident on a road . If i help him i can be in trouble with the police. Why should i help him if nobody is going to give me reward for that.
I found a bag full of money. If i keep it i can live a good life and if i don't i will have to do a lot of hard work through out my life. Then why i should deposite it in the police station if nobody is watching.
Why should i do my duties sincerely if others are not doing in the office?
 
Jitender Singh (Nov 02, 2003 05:26 a.m.):
Dear Bhuvnesh Ji, Budh Ji and Dr. Dudee,

Clearly it is the Faith that is associating people to the God. I still do argue about having such faith, if it is with good spirit. But what is happening is that this faith has become more or less a method of befooling people rather than keeping up the spirit of your spirituality and driving people do goods.

Again, I would like to get your suggestion on the Ayodhya Mandir issue. Won't it be okay to keep up the maszid, since it is also a place to worship God? Your spirituality says God is one. Please don't skip answering to this question again. And please do take the issue with the spirit of the debate and not the way that I want to hurt the feeling of you people.

Your turn please!!!
Click to expand...
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Dear Jitendra Ji
Simply relation of man and god is faith but this Ram Mandir issue is not connected with faith, it is a political movement, to make people fool with the tool of religion. Nobody wants to make a mandir, because after this they will have to headon for some other issues and this would be difficult task so they want to continue feed this in our brains for votes, simply otherwise why this mandier issue stands up just before elections? In last 1992 movement had any political leader killed, Mr. L K Advani, Mr Ashok Singhal, Mr Togadia, Mr. Thakre, they only imprisoned for their safety which was predetermined and all are with us now...only some innocent families lost their loving sons, husbands, fathers.... due to blindly faith on the man (not on the god, Ram never came in dream of any hindu to say about his mandir)....Do faith on god, but always think with your own mind. God does not say to kill other religious people, to make mandirs, to go even in mandirs. Only this is man who put this god's issue in the market to fulfill his necessary and unnecessary needs on the cost of others faith.

Jitendra Ji I never oppose you on this issue as you say you dont have faith on god, you are OK with your arguments, but you have faith on your arguments, your knowledge and this is the faith of god, nobody never seen, heard the god, only we faith on something.. on us, on parents, on meditation, on Ram...... all are different modes to make strong us mentally and this is really the faith of god....God is not an entity..this is only the name of mode given by people...and this is required to run this brain efficientely.
 
Dear Budh Ji,

I really appreciate your clarity of thoughts. I agree with your ideology as well. And I thank you for giving me an additional principle to live with:

"There should be only one religion or principle: Love of Humanity"

My only intention of taking the Ayodhya issue is that this Love of Humanity is being voilated by the so called political and religious ideologues, whose only intention is to befool people.
 
Dear Yajbir Ji,

Thanks for asking me to go to my conscience. Each and every object in this universe has two things: one is structure, and another is behaviour, which distinguish it from other objects. Nature is the collection of all objects in the universe.

What you have been talking of is only the static part of nature, that is the structure. The objects also have the behaviours as well. It is as elementry as the electron possessing the negative charge will attract the positvely charged particles. This is what the behaviour is.

It is okay that iron ore does not have enough intelligence to make a railway engine out of it. But the Nature has. Do you think that there was some spiritual aspect associated in the making of railway engine out of iron ore. I'll be interested if there is. For me it is the gradual development of the natural resources ( Man, Tools made out of nature, and the various materials). I again strictly believe that the knowledge we gain comes out of this world only.

Probably, I have answered your question as well!
 
Yajvir Bhai,

I agree we must not forget our history. And we should learn from the mistakes, should be aware of our capabilities and try to make progress.

So that is why we must not commit the same mistakes, or do another mistakes for the sake of correcting the mistakes.

I hope that if you are Arya Samaji than you must be aware of the ten principles stated in Arya Samaj. Please do revise your 6th and 10th principle. Hope it will benefit you.

Again, coming to the prestige of Hindus, how many Hindus you have asked before declaring that it is the prestige of Hindus. Prestige of Hindus is the upliftment of Hindus, removal of social evils of Hindus and not the building of the mandir. Again we are living in a Secular country, where it is a crime to deprive a person his fundamental rights for the sake of the prestige of another individual. Again, you are not only violating your constitution, but your Arya Samaji faith as well. (Principle 10)

Probably, you are treating every Muslim to be from Pakistan. The concept of India and Pakistan is quite different from the concept of Hindu and Muslim.

I have never seen in any religious book that asks its followers to finish the followers of another religion. Nowhere in Hindus', Muslims', Sikhs', or Christians'. From where you get your kind knowledge? Please tell me too.

Finally, please correct. In Ayodhya, Hindus demolished the Masjid on Dec 6, 1992. And are now trying to build the Mandir now.

Answer to your last question: I am strictly against these places being built. Rather than spending so much of money in show-off for your religion, try to do something for humanity. A school is really a very good option.
 
Really Yajvir Bhai,

I don't believe in doing anything for the sake of the fear of your God.

If I don't tell lies it is because I don't want that people around me don't have faith in me.
If I don't hurt anybody it is because atleast I am trying to avoid a person standing against me.
If I want to be honest it is because being honest helps you in living a tensionless life.
If I do my duty sincerely it helps me improve my efficiency in my profession.
And for always, because life is not a single moment, but it is a collection of million moments.
If I get Rs. 10 lakh for a lie, I simply don't because my words are priceless, as the loss incurred (which I do save by not speaking) by the lie which can fetch such an amount. So I may not get 10 lakh but I saved many more, isn't?
If you help anybody only for the award, that is your conscience, mine says help because he will be motivated to help others. And if I help others then only I can expect others to help me in trouble.
How come nobody is watching? You are watching. If your observation is too meek, you may go over with the fear of getting caught forever, rather than living a proud life.
If others are drinking will you? If yes, you are free to follow others as example, rather than being an example for others.
 
Folks,

First of all, I really appreciate you all for keeping the spirit of this discussion positive. My earlier post could have been taken in a wrong sense even though I had no intension of offending anyone. Thanks to Dr. Dudee, Dr. Nashier and Ch. Ishwar Singh for their positive thinking that we are discussing such a controversial topic in such a healthy manner.

I agree wholeheartedly with all the points Dr. Nashier brought up. I would do all these, not because of the fear of God but because it is good for me in the long run and it is very practical. As Jitender pointed out life is not just a moment, it is a collection of millions of moments. Human is a social animal. You must do good Karma to build a goodwill with others and to enjoy and cherish upon the moments you have been able to contribute positively to the society and your surroundings.

I would use a simple mechanism to decide what is good and what is bad in most circumstances - behave how you would like others to behave and do what you would like to see others do. In other cases do your best and happily accept the consequences.

I truely believe that you will see the consequences of your Karma in this life. So you have to do good Karma to minimize the bad consequences. Sometimes the consequences are immediate, sometime it takes a while.

Bhuvan and others have already explained very well and I agree fully that God is really ones faith. It is really a state of mind. And that is fine. It becomes a problem when it starts dictating our actions. Especially, when it makes us do things which divide the society or leads us to clashes such as Ayodha or Kashmir. A similar state of mind also sometimes gives us a false sense of superiority (or sometimes inferiority) and plays a role in racism.

I agree with Dr. Nashier's point 2(a) that there are things we don't understand and can't comprehend. We leave those things beyond us and simply let them play out. These are things which are beyond our control and capabilities. We can only do and understand this much. No one person is all that powerful. For that matter, entire human race is not that powerful. This is a very complex world. Nobody can claim to have understood everything.

All we have to do is try not to exploit. Because that creates an imbalance which leads to clashes and creates an unhealthy society.

It is very hard to grasp for some people but I would argue that God is created by humans and not vice-versa. It is humans who created the concept of God and then gave it different names and divided the society based on which name of the God you choose.

To those of us who believe in the natural evolution of human race let me ask a question - do animals believe in God? Maybe they do, who knows but I am kinda doubtful.

Just a few thoughts.

-ajmer
 
Dear Ajmer,

Really you have been quite daring to strike out the most important aspect of the discussion:
"It is very hard to grasp for some people but I would argue that God is created by humans and not vice-versa. It is humans who created the concept of God and then gave it different names and divided the society based on which name of the God you choose."
Really people do try to argue this but this is indeed a damn truth.


The last question has only one answer-
"Only Dogs know....."
 
Dear Jitu,

From above postings we can deduce that your confidence in God's non existence is almost complete. You have also established that God is only an imagination of man. That closes the doors on you for future learning about this topic. A person only learns when he/she is curious enough or unsure of some thing.Can you prove that there is no God ? Atleast leave some room for your curiosity that one day you may come across a situation where you may have a change of heart.

The fact that some of us are deprived of the feeling of God's presence is due to doubts we have about ourselves or they say self doubting.
The process of self knowledge starts with understanding yourself and then it leads to realisation of God. There is no need to prove or disprove the presence of God. Because the facts do not cease to exist even if they are ignored. For your sake let us say that God never existed only people imagined about him for centuries. You have to agree that they believed in some thing close to perfect (which is much better than our little selves and our imperfect logics and standards we set for ourselves). For example you say that if I do not tell a lie........ tell me can you say for sure that in your life time not even once you have told a smallest lie. I don't know any one who can make that claim and you may be the first one. On the other hand if you can not make that claim then can we say none of us including you and I are perfect and could use some help in being better than what we are to-day. If you agree with this arguement then you also agree that human beings have an object in life higher than eating,sleeping and breeding i.e. self actualisation and in it's finest form leads to God realisation.Some one asked here if animals believe in God. If animals can think and communicate then surely it will be there favourite topic of discussion as it is among humans.

God does not micro manage our lives but rewards are based on our actions. There are no absolute rights and wrongs they all depend on our point of view.Where as cause and effect are interdependent. For every cause there is certain effect and the law which governs those effects relate to God. We are free to do what we please but are not free to accept or reject the effect of our actions. That is the theory of Karma in it's simplest form. Those issues which have created so much turmoil in the World in the name of religion have nothing to do with God but religion is used as an excuse to pursue political agenda that is the irony. People will do any thing in the name of religion except following it.
Ayodhya Mandir is only one such example.

Some one ( Baljit I think) asked about favourite Gods of Jats which are Hanuman ji and Shivaji and they are pleased easily by simplistic and purity of life style. When an imminent danger stares in the face (e.g. entering a 200 feet deep well with the support of a rope Hanuman ji has given courage to millions of Jats in overcoming the fear and giving them confidence, similarly soldiers have drawn on this source of strength to face enemy in war time). Our religion and culture is the richest in World where we have specialist Gods for every occasion e.g. Ganesh for commissioning, Sarswati for education, Laxmi for prosperity, Hanuman ji for fearless ness. They are all different forms of one God but were helpful to ordinary people in following the laws of God in their daily lives. Unfortunately Brahmins misused simple faith of public to their advantage and created superstition by creating fear in people's mind. Swami Dayanand has done a great job of overcoming those superstitions and has said that Jat ji is the one closest to God. That is the main reason why Arya Samaj became so popular in the last century but seems to be losing favour because of confusion created by various agents of God. Have the clarity of thought and hopefully one day you will realise God and even if we do not realise God in this life We would have led a good and honest life, which does not seems to be such a bad idea after all. What do you say? Are you absolutely sure that there is no God and every thing that happens in this World happens by chance.
 
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