Gotra Issue...is this 21st century

[vinodks]

I dont think you are trying to understand. I would suggest you to read Dharampal ji's book on Panchayat Raj. [The great soul passed away recently.] If you find time you could also read Dr B K Dabas's book on Social and Political History of Jats.

Panchayat Raj and India's Polity by Dharampal
http://www.vidyaonline.net/arvindgupta/dharampal4.zip

Kripya, Rwanda ki panchayat ke baare mein aur batayiye?

-vinod

Your arguments are not holding because you say you have Panchayats and you have more problems.

In fact, you will find more problems in places where there are panchayats than not.

This panchayat systems you are advocating reminds me the African countries like Rwanda where they have similar panchayats.

There is no society even the most successful one's in world free from problems.

 

[hdsura]

Look Ahead

I by no way affected by it and could careless. But when you talk of Jat progress as whole I see it as problem not a solution. Kings are gone, Angrez are gone and so should have the panchayats. These are irrelevant now and unlawful too, even if they used to be a system.

Pariticipate in the mainstream or else left behind. You should give this message to people when you go to village.

Talk of present and future not the past---which even if you try wasn't that glorious. Lets be honest to ourselves here.

 

[hdsura]

I guess I have come too far perhaps, there is a saying -

*Hath kangan ko arsi kya*

My friend, listen carefully, I have quite learned people in my family who have been part of the Jat issues and I myself too have been involved quite a lot. I am quite aware of what are Jats what it means to me.

I dont think you are trying to understand. I would suggest you to read Dharampal ji's book on Panchayat Raj. [The great soul passed away recently.] If you find time you could also read Dr B K Dabas's book on Social and Political History of Jats.

Panchayat Raj and India's Polity by Dharampal
http://www.vidyaonline.net/arvindgupta/dharampal4.zip

Kripya, Rwanda ki panchayat ke baare mein aur batayiye?

-vinod

 

[vinodks]

Just wanted to share a quote.

Sir J N Sarkar*: "From ancient times till today Jats have been witnessing to democratic system and it is on account of this system that the entire community is based on equality, integrity, sociability and individual liberty. Despite the want of diplomatic skill, a common economic system and conducting a regular administration, they acknowledge the opinion of their elected leader or a respected chief with great reverence."

-vinod

*- Sir J N Sarkar was an Indian historian, inarguably one among the best.

 

[kharub]

Totally Support the Panchayati Action

I totally and thoroughly support the panchayati action ...... The grooms family was made aware of the social issues in advance and if they still choose to break away with social custom ... then the society has a right to outcast them ........

If you do not respect social norms and law of the land then you have no right to be a part of that society

And those enlightened souls .... the self appointed intellectulas crying foul and claiming injustice let me remind you people that its these very customs that have kept Jats Jats through thick and thin ..........

These panchayats and the social systems that our quam has is the very reason we faced the onslaugt of Brahmins & Mugals and thrived ... its what makes us strong and powerful ........ and all those who do not like the system are more than welcome to move to "undisclosed location" like the Poonia family did ........ you will not be missed

 

[kharub]

For an outsider these panchayats seem more of an ill than cure. Most (may be all) of the time these are in news for bad reasons. Their means of solving problems, if at all that is the intention, are medieval.

They are giving good amunition to the Jat unfriendly media to create circus out of Jats.

Let them outsiders think what they want ........ since when did Jats started caring about what people think ...... Its our custom and our culture and I am standing by it .. and will support it no matter what ...........

Are you talking about the same outsiders who operate Gay (Homosexual) Bars in Delhi, Bombay & Banglore ... who have wife swapping parties and consider themselves the social elite of India

(and these are not stories I have read, I have been to such parties, not knowing what was going on and then realising the deal and storming out)

I am a Jat ... and proud of my customs and cultures those who feel ashamed can change their surnames to Gupta, Sharma, Tyagi, Khan, Haq or whatever and we will not bother you ..

Talking liberal does not show one's modern outlook or ones advancement in life .. it only shows how hollow you are inside ......... Germans & Scandanavians are counted among the most liberal people .. and you should see their commitment to their customs and traditions ..... makes me laugh at these pseudo Liberal Jats wannabe

The weak change with times ........ the strong mould the times as they wish

 

[kharub]

There are two issues in this -
1) What is the legal or constitutional framework of these panchayats.
2) Social fabric of a certain class.

From what I understand (not limited to any particular episode) that these panayats are unconstitutional let alone democratic. If one justify to run an unconstitutional parallel governing/justice system then I guess one is treading dangerous territory. This is the point media is trying to convey.

Social fabric is concerned, no question of social values, rather unconcerned people getting in others business. Then may be that is what I am doing here. -

What is the constitution... some Dalit and a bunch of pandits wrote it .... constitution was written recently by human beings and not God himself ... and it can be changed by the fools like Lalu Yadav sitting in the parliament .. so don't give me the crap about greatness or superiority of the constitution

Our traditions are centuries old and far superior that any bloody constitution ... and same goes for laws ....... laws change

Its legal in the EU for faggets (homosexuals) to get married & adopt kids too and in a lot of Americal states also and and if you say anything against it you go to jail .......... so there goes the superiority of laws as well

People make laws . powerful people who have money and clout and people wrote the constitution ... it is in no way better than my customs .. centuries old and what has kept the identity of my people distinct .......

Screw your laws and constitution ......... they are wrong and faulty if not in line with the law of my people ......... And I will defy them every time they conflict with my rules

 

[kharub]

Totally agree with every word

.
पर हमारा समाज इसकी इजाजत नहीं देता कि एक ही गांव में शादी हो या किसी दूसरे ऐसे गांव की लड़की ब्याह कर लाई जाये जिसके गोत के आदमी गांव में पहले ही मौजूद हैं ।

समस्या यहीं से शुरू होती है और पंचायतों को दखलंदाजी भी करनी पड़ती है । सरकारों ने कानून तो बना दिये पर समाज में उनके उल्टे असर का ख्याल नहीं किया । जो समाज हजारों साल से चला आ रहा है, उस पर पश्चिमी देशों से उधार लिये हुए कानून लागू करने से तो समाज में उथल-पुथल होगी ही ।

दूसरी बात यह भी है कि आजकल के पत्रकार भी ज्यादातर शहरी लोग हैं, उनको न तो पंचायती सिस्टम और न ही देहातों के रीत-रिवाजों का पता है । इन लोगों को अच्छा मसाला मिल जाता है और खूब नमक-मिर्च लगाकर लिखते हैं । ज्यादातर पत्रकार पंजाबी, बनिया या बाहमण हैं और तकरीबन सारे ही जाट विरोधी हैं । ऐसे पंचायती फैसले पहले भी होते आये हैं - और बहुत सोच समझ कर ही किये जाते हैं । आजकल जब समाज के ताने-बाने पर हमला हो रहा है तो ऐसी घटनायें तो होंगी ही । अपनी मर्जी से किसी भी गोत्र में या किसी भी जाति में ब्याह करना हो तो बेहतर है कि गांव को छोड़ दो और दूर किसी शहर में रहने लग जाओ । पर आजकल गावों में भी जमीन की कीमतें इतनी बढ गईं हैं, कौन एक सोने की मुर्गी को मारना चाहता है ?
.

Totally Agree with every word

 

[sidchhikara]

Confusing the issue

What is the constitution... some Dalit and a bunch of pandits wrote it .... constitution was written recently by human beings and not God himself ... and it can be changed by the fools like Lalu Yadav sitting in the parliament .. so don't give me the crap about greatness or superiority of the constitution

Our traditions are centuries old and far superior that any bloody constitution ... and same goes for laws ....... laws change

Its legal in the EU for faggets (homosexuals) to get married & adopt kids too and in a lot of Americal states also and and if you say anything against it you go to jail .......... so there goes the superiority of laws as well

People make laws . powerful people who have money and clout and people wrote the constitution ... it is in no way better than my customs .. centuries old and what has kept the identity of my people distinct .......

Screw your laws and constitution ......... they are wrong and faulty if not in line with the law of my people ......... And I will defy them every time they conflict with my rules

Sir,
You are confusing the issue. I realize your passion for the Jat customs.
You are angry against ppl of other religion caste etc. You have a right to be angry against them if you feel like it, but that does not make the panchayat right. The constitution written by ppl of other caste etc., may be wrong, but that does'nt make the panchayat right. I totally agree with you that constitution is F*&#ed up in more that one way and that ppl of other castes are assholes (not all of them though) - but it still does'nt make the panchayat right.

Please go easy on the homos, they probably will never harm you in anyway. I would be concerned about them if all the homos in the world decided to go and **** on ppl's front lawn everyday of the morning. That would be something I would not want to look at.

 

[sidchhikara]

To all the panchayat pushers: here's the truth.....

1) The sarpanch is mostly corrupt and hoards all the money given to him by the government - thats how good the panchayat is. It by the ppl, of the ppl, but not for the ppl - its another way to channelize funds to the sarpanch.

2) In this particular case: Then he passes judgement on powerless and clueless ppl who dont know what hit them. His stupid ass and the rest of the clueless villagers then go ahead and do stupid sh*t like nakabandi - just holding traffic and inviting the stupid Indian press to come over and write a really stupid article - which makes the villagers look like fools (they actually are!!)

3) The rest of the stupid citizens read the papers - they form their stupid and biased opinion about Jats (branding all Jats stupid) -not realizing that they (read bania, punjabis - rest of them - I have no respect for stupid ppl BTW) are themselves stupid and annoying.

4) Then another stupid incident happens down the line involving Jats ... you know the rest of the drill.

5) Then we have ppl over here defending this kind of stupidity - you know what it makes them look like - you guessed it ------ STUPID!!!!!!!!!!

4)

 

[dndeswal]

Our unique Panchayat system

.
The word ‘Panchayat’ itself contains several meanings. The true meaning of the word is that wherever five elderly, wise persons assemble, is called a ‘Panchayat’ or ‘the group of five learned persons’. Its modern format about which Mr. Chhikara is perhaps referring to, is the elected or, in a way, ‘Sarkari’ Panchayat which has some recognition by Government agencies.

Our traditional Panchayat system is not against any religion or caste - every caste has its own super-Panchayat. Brahmins have their own Panchayats, so do banias and other castes. Similarly every ‘khap’ has its own panchayat. The system itself has been prevailing for thousands of years – this unique system is India’s product and has been tested over time. Even President Clinton has praised this in his speeches and writings.

It may be possible that in the present case involving Jevali village of Poonia Gotra, the local ‘panchayat’ may be wrong. Courts have also delivered wrong decisions in the past. But that does not prove that our faith in the Panchayati system has been lost or they are “stupid” in delivering their judgements. The decisions of these Panchayats may not be legally-binding but are certainly morally-binding on the part of a locality or village. Americans are also making “stupid”, laws against immigrants and against their own nationals. Their stupid Senators and Congressmen are passing inhuman and immoral laws like gay marriages etc.
.

 

[sidchhikara]

.
The word ‘Panchayat’ itself contains several meanings. The true meaning of the word is that wherever five elderly, wise persons assemble, is called a ‘Panchayat’ or ‘the group of five learned persons’. Its modern format about which Mr. Chhikara is perhaps referring to, is the elected or, in a way, ‘Sarkari’ Panchayat which has some recognition by Government agencies.

Our traditional Panchayat system is not against any religion or caste - every caste has its own super-Panchayat. Brahmins have their own Panchayats, so do banias and other castes. Similarly every ‘khap’ has its own panchayat. The system itself has been prevailing for thousands of years – this unique system is India’s product and has been tested over time. Even President Clinton has praised this in his speeches and writings.

It may be possible that in the present case involving Jevali village of Poonia Gotra, the local ‘panchayat’ may be wrong. Courts have also delivered wrong decisions in the past. But that does not prove that our faith in the Panchayati system has been lost or they are “stupid” in delivering their judgements. The decisions of these Panchayats may not be legally-binding but are certainly morally-binding on the part of a locality or village. Americans are also making “stupid”, laws against immigrants and against their own nationals. Their stupid Senators and Congressmen are passing inhuman and immoral laws like gay marriages etc.
.

Who said the Americans are not stupid? - Some of them are very stupid, especially the religious kind - including Bush - who thinks Jesus told him to liberate Iraq. Some of the *achievements* of these stupid ppl include blocking stem cell research, not teaching evolution in school, ban on gay marriage, pro-life campaign, putting the ten commandments from the bible in all federal buildings... I can go on and on....

Whats inhuman and immoral about gay marriage? Does not bother me one bit.

Whats inhuman is imposing your will other ppl, let them do what they want until it affects you or the public services you use.

 

[kharub]

Sir,
You are confusing the issue. I realize your passion for the Jat customs.
You are angry against ppl of other religion caste etc. You have a right to be angry against them if you feel like it, but that does not make the panchayat right. The constitution written by ppl of other caste etc., may be wrong, but that does'nt make the panchayat right. I totally agree with you that constitution is F*&#ed up in more that one way and that ppl of other castes are assholes (not all of them though) - but it still does'nt make the panchayat right.

Please go easy on the homos, they probably will never harm you in anyway. I would be concerned about them if all the homos in the world decided to go and **** on ppl's front lawn everyday of the morning. That would be something I would not want to look at.

Homosexulity is a poision an evil if ignored will spread fast like it has in west .... it is a natural defect soemtimes genetic sometimes psycological .. I have nothing against homosexuals but everything against homosexuality .... but thats not the point of discussion here ... so i will save it for another time ...

 

[kharub]

1) The sarpanch is mostly corrupt and hoards all the money given to him by the government - thats how good the panchayat is. It by the ppl, of the ppl, but not for the ppl - its another way to channelize funds to the sarpanch.

Chhikara Bhai sahab .. by this logic the whole concept of democracy is faulty and should be scrapped ...... We should rather have a council of intellectuals to decide governance matters

2) In this particular case: Then he passes judgement on powerless and clueless ppl who dont know what hit them. His stupid ass and the rest of the clueless villagers then go ahead and do stupid sh*t like nakabandi - just holding traffic and inviting the stupid Indian press to come over and write a really stupid article - which makes the villagers look like fools (they actually are!!)

The whole point is its those peoples village and community .. whether out of stupidity or in full intellectual foresight they decide to do something its not only right but their absolute right to do so ......... a community is made of people and those people decide which direction to steer it in ... whether you agree or disagree

3) The rest of the stupid citizens read the papers - they form their stupid and biased opinion about Jats (branding all Jats stupid) -not realizing that they (read bania, punjabis - rest of them - I have no respect for stupid ppl BTW) are themselves stupid and annoying.

People will always think what they want to and you cannot please them .... when you start pleasing people the only thing you get it out of it is that displease yourself ..... stop worrying about people and stand up for what you think is right

4) Then another stupid incident happens down the line involving Jats ... you know the rest of the drill.

5) Then we have ppl over here defending this kind of stupidity - you know what it makes them look like - you guessed it ------ STUPID!!!!!!!!!!

What high moral ground do you have to have to think that your are so enlightened and superoir ... let me remind you that wherever in the world you live you are a product of that very social system ... and now you are critisizing it huh ........ maybe you have grown too big for your own boots ....... or maybe you are too Americanised and everything Jat smells now ....

4)

My comments are limited to our argument here on this topic and are not meant to be a personal observation

 

[vkaschaudhary]

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[vinodks]

Guys, plz spare the gays in the discussion. Have whatever opinions you have regarding gay/lesbian/bi or whatever plz dont bring it in discussion on panchayat.

I agree with chikara on that Sarpanchs are "sometimes" corrupt. But the whole approach towards judging the panchayat system is based on partial selection of facts to suit the argument rather than including the complete picture. In my village, I had seen one surpanch who was so respected and so corrupt. I was child so didn't have courage to question him. Now the surpanch is from carpenter class and he looks much more honest. Lekin Hooda govt usko passe hi nahi deti))...

There were few decision taken by panchayat which I really appreciated e.g. making classrooms for school by collecting chanda, buying ox for village by collecting money, cutting tree from a barren land and converting it into johad(pool), putting ban on cutting tree on nahar(canal), expelling a culprit from village who had almost killed another old man, expelling another man from village who had killed the ox(becuase ox had killed his father last year while the unfortunate old man was feeding the ox) so take the revenge the idoit son hit the ox on the date next year(its horror, humans are sometimes so strange) etc etc... Some of the this decision or their execution is out of hand of govt./police to enforce... I think we need to reform the system with positive input from educated class rather than bitch about age-old system...

-vinod

 

[sidchhikara]

Just a thought

My comments are limited to our argument here on this topic and are not meant to be a personal observation

Originally Posted by sidchhikara
1) The sarpanch is mostly corrupt and hoards all the money given to him by the government - thats how good the panchayat is. It by the ppl, of the ppl, but not for the ppl - its another way to channelize funds to the sarpanch.

Chhikara Bhai sahab .. by this logic the whole concept of democracy is faulty and should be scrapped ...... We should rather have a council of intellectuals to decide governance matters

Give me one good reason why any rational human being would side with someone who is corrupt?
I'll give you 3:
1) Either you are yourself corrupt
2) Or you donot find anything wrong with corruption
3) or you are totally missing the point and arguing about it just for the sake of argument


2) In this particular case: Then he passes judgement on powerless and clueless ppl who dont know what hit them. His stupid ass and the rest of the clueless villagers then go ahead and do stupid sh*t like nakabandi - just holding traffic and inviting the stupid Indian press to come over and write a really stupid article - which makes the villagers look like fools (they actually are!!)

The whole point is its those peoples village and community .. whether out of stupidity or in full intellectual foresight they decide to do something its not only right but their absolute right to do so ......... a community is made of people and those people decide which direction to steer it in ... whether you agree or disagree

Its not right by me and also the ppl who got affected by this nonsense and I totally disagree with what they did. I have an opinion and I will hold on to it.


3) The rest of the stupid citizens read the papers - they form their stupid and biased opinion about Jats (branding all Jats stupid) -not realizing that they (read bania, punjabis - rest of them - I have no respect for stupid ppl BTW) are themselves stupid and annoying.

People will always think what they want to and you cannot please them .... when you start pleasing people the only thing you get it out of it is that displease yourself ..... stop worrying about people and stand up for what you think is right

Thats what I have been doing all along on this thread

4) Then another stupid incident happens down the line involving Jats ... you know the rest of the drill.

5) Then we have ppl over here defending this kind of stupidity - you know what it makes them look like - you guessed it ------ STUPID!!!!!!!!!!

What high moral ground do you have to have to think that your are so enlightened and superoir ... let me remind you that wherever in the world you live you are a product of that very social system ... and now you are critisizing it huh ........ maybe you have grown too big for your own boots ....... or maybe you are too Americanised and everything Jat smells now ....

Yes, I am a product of that social system. This social system has some good things and some bad. I am calling out the bad things.
One need not be americanised to be rationally inclined. Unless you think both are the same thing. I would like to point out that they are not - America is full of irrational ppl.

Let me point out what smells:
Corruption
Casteism
Religious and other kinds of intolerence
Global warming
Overpopulation
Civil Strife
Racism
If a Jat does any of these things in my opinion - he stinks too - no exception.
Human race itself stinks - they are so arrogant that they think the earth revolves for them. The seasons change for them. There is a God that will take care of them. They think they are superior to other ppl because they belong to certain race/color/religion/customs. Believe me we can go the dinosaur way anytime. All the conflicts will end - Palestinian -Israel, Muslim-Christian, Jat - non-jat, gotra issues. That same sarpanch's corpse will be laying in a pile of molten celestial lava. Till that happens we can either live peacefully and be civil to each other or quarrel over gotra issues.

As you pointed out correctly, I have grown out of my boots because they stunk.

The game is bigger than any of us.

 

[upender]

Guys let us not forget the topic which was being discussed....gotras are extremely important not just socially but for obvious genetic reasons....when we try to avoid marriages within gotras including that of mother, grandmother as well as those which reside within the same village is to avoid consanguinity in marriages....intragotra marriage will lead to increase in genetic disorders in the new born....so those who think why our elderly or the panchayats interfere when such a situation arises need to think twice...it sounds like a rigid system to those who have little social and scientific understanding of this gotra system....gehlot

 

[raj_rathee]

Anyway good luck for healthy debate.

-vinod

Wishful thinking!

Koni meenh barse iss raygeestan men. Yahre tae chauth pathan tae eh
gaadi chaale sae!

Well anyways:
When in Rome do as the Romans do (and they did plenty )
When in Jatland, do as the Jats do! Jats the way!

 

[amitchhikara]

I will have to agree with Sidharth. Who you chose to marry is only your business and the panchayat should have no say in it. In this case they are trying to impose their will on others. Pachayat's have not changed with time and are still trying to impose some of the age old customs. If the families involved do not have any problem then what the F*** is the panchayat's problem ?

I admire Kharb's passion for the JAT community but he seems to make every issue a JATS vs the rest of the world issue and always has these war analogies like we have to gear up to fight the rest of the world. Don't quite get that.