Jatland Wiki updates

lrburdak said:
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Ranaji,

Jatasura has been mentioned by B S Dahiya. I have not concluded that it is Jat. It may be a person of some Jat clan and asura which does not mean demon in persian. Persian term asura is respectable. Demon is the creation of brahmanical writers. Devasura sangram tells this thing. Both are good people. Jatasura may also be used for an asura with long hair. Is there any historical fact which says he had no relation with Jats? We have brought out information about Jatasura so that we can know if he has got any relation with Jat. Varahamihara is a real person and he is from Persian origin. Varaha is probably his clan and Mihira means Sun which indicates persian origin and Jat connection. Varaha are existing Jats in Malwa which was also the area of varahamihira. It may sound strange but has certain evidences.
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This sounds digestable...but what you say abt this...it shows Moh. gori connection with jat....don't u think that such bull**** must be eradicated from this site?..I found it here http://www.jatland.com/home/Nain
जाट इतिहासकार भले राम बेनीवाल ने अपनी पुस्तक 'जाट योद्धाओं का इतिहास' में इस गोत्र का विस्तार से वर्णन किया है. उनके अनुसार यह चंद्रवंशी गोत्र है. यह जाटों के प्राचीनतम गोत्रों में से एक है. भले राम जी, ठाकुर देशराज के तंवर गोत्र से उत्पति के प्रमाण से सहमत नहीं हैं. नैन गोत्र इससे पहले भी अस्तित्व में था. राजस्थान में भिरणी गाँव जिला हनुमानगढ़ और बालेवास जिला हनुमानगढ़, राजस्थान में प्रचलित कहानी सच प्रतीत होती है. शमशेर सिंह पुत्र बलदेव सिंह अपनी ३३ पीढियों का खुलासा करते हैं जो सभी राजा अनंगपाल तोमर से जाकर मिलती हैं. राजा अनंगपाल के कोई लड़का नहीं था. जिस समय उनकी आयु ९० वर्ष थी उस समय ईरान देश के निष्कासित राजा क़यामत खां अपनी बेगम व जवान पुत्री शाहबानो के साथ अनंगपाल के दरबार में आया, वह जाट कौम का था और उसके परिवार ने ८ वीं सदी में इस्लाम ग्रहण किया था. क़यामत खां की जवान बेटी को हिन्दू बनाकर उसका नाम बदल कर सुमन देवी रखा और उससे शादी की थी तब उससे एक लड़का पैदा हुआ था. राजा के कुल पुरोहितों ने राजा को सलाह दी कि यह बच्चा राज्य के लिए अहितकर है. इस कारण राजा ने आया को हुक्म दिया कि उस बालक की हत्या कर दे लेकिन उस आया के मन में रहम आ गया तथा उस अबोध बालक को 'गौर' (गोबर आदि फैंकने का स्थान) में फेंक दिया. जब एक कुम्हार व कुम्हारी गौर में पहुंचे तो उन्होंने उस बालक को उठा लिया तथा गौर में मिलने के कारण इनका नाम गौर सिंह रखा जो बाद में मोहम्मद गौरी के नाम से प्रसिद्ध हुआ. वह दिल्लीके राजा अनंगपाल क इकलोता पुत्र था तथा उसका गोत्र नैन था. इस गोत्र के बारे में जो वंशावली जाट इतिहास एवं समकालीन सन्दर्भ के लेखक प्रताप सिंह शास्त्री ने दी है वह शमशेर सिंह गाँव धमतान साहब जिला जींद, हरियाणा द्वारा दी गयी से मेल खाती है. <SUP id=cite_ref-3 class=reference>[4]</SUP>
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Dear Prashant ,

There is reference who says so. Please be within limits. By the way what is your contribution to this site? I earlier asked to at least provide history of your Gotra Vaidwan which you could not do then how do you expect others to write what you want? It is a contributory thing and not some body's milkiyat. think positive . Don't use words like - bull****?
 
lrburdak said:
Dear Prashant ,

There is reference who says so. Please be within limits. By the way what is your contribution to this site? I earlier asked to at least provide history of your Gotra Vaidwan which you could not do then how do you expect others to write what you want? It is a contributory thing and not some body's milkiyat. think positive . Don't use words like - bull****?
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I don't understand where i have crossed my limits:confused:..your statement indicates if I shrug up against the things that are even beyond imagination, I will have to feel the heat. As far as my contribution to this site is concerned..i don't think that i will hunt a lion by writing some funny things in jatland wiki....or u think you are on the top of the sky by copy-paste some imaginary talks floating around the fantasy historians:confused: . I guess any sane person will loose his mind if he starts reading this gotras stuff. Anyway, i want to make you sure that i will not fill up the pages on jatland wiki with these silly things. you please move on with your spree.
 
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Jatasura -Varahamihira

Luxman Ji,
Jatasura was a demon named by Varahamihira. The name has two parts- jaTA and asura.Asura is clear i.e. a demon. The first part jaTA is also simple i.e. a (long) hair -lock. There does not appear any scope or occasion to imagine a connection wih our presnt caste label, jaat and run the risk of calling your self a demon. The alibi that asur could mean oposit of what it came to mean in vedic and later Sanskrit. Please do not shift to Iran/Avesta when we ae examining the text of a Sanskrit text of the sixth century A.D.The simple term jaTAsura, literally meaning a demon with long locks of hair should be left alone.
Allied to this is my submission that te term jATa in the sense of our caste need not be traced in every similarly sounding word of the Sanskrit language. The Sanskrit language has definite rules and not much liberties can be taken in forging connection where it oes not exist. I have separately shown how misplaced the derivations proposed by several writes have been. So please go on with your search/ mision, but it is imporant ot to loose sigh of the central thread of context, histoy and linguistic principles. Otherwise one could derive anything from anything else.But that wil not be god research and cedible history.Sadly what is happening with Jat history is this phenomina-first at the hands of the westerns-largely British and lately our own romantic writers infused with grat spirt of caste patriotism with a kind of vengeance, against the brahmana caste.
Im open to correction on reaon and evidence.
 
Varahamihira

Luxman Ji,
You suggest that the name Varahamihira has the constituent 'varaha' which could be jat gotra ( as we find today).My only comment would be that in stead of reading varaha as a gotra why not leave it as a normal first part of the full name. That would be in line with the pattern of giving names to persons in ancient and also modern times. Varahadasa's own son was named Vishnudatta (vide Yashodharman's Mandasaur stone inscription). We also know that names generally transcended boundaries of gotra (which is a special identiy).I have no problem if you prefer to place Varahamihira in the Malava region.I may point out that the Mandasaur stone inscription of Yashodharman contains the name Varahadasa of one of the administrators/ministers of the Aulikara family.The Risthal inscription also gives the names of some members of the same family of ministers.As you know gotra is added to a fuller name. It genelly does not complement anincomplete name particulaly as a member of a compound (in a samaasa).I would sugest that we leave 'Varaha' alone as an integral part of the complete name Varahamihira and avoid assigning to him a later day identiy of a caste.
 
PRASHANT JI,

Please keep your patience and remain courteous. When you have a point you can always disagree or just read on.Our brotherhod is more important han e topics of discussion. I can well understand your reaction. I have very little credentials to advise others, but I thought Icould relate to you.Thanks.
 
drssrana2003 said:
PRASHANT JI,

Please keep your patience and remain courteous. When you have a point you can always disagree or just read on.Our brotherhod is more important han e topics of discussion. I can well understand your reaction. I have very little credentials to advise others, but I thought Icould relate to you.Thanks.
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Rana ji, your views are persuaded. By the way, I don't expect this "ji" suffix from you.
 
Mr Prashant is not replying my question. What is the origin of Vaidwan his own surname.

I am man of Physics and believe that these are not scientifically correct. Indian history is not based on science. That is our limitation. Jat history has not been recorded rather ignored and distorted.

We have first recorded what our historians have put on record in their writings. We have given their references. We know that many things are not logical or with historical evidences. Our approach is to find facts from these writings.

There are many facts hidden in our mythological stories also. We have to find facts from there also.

I know what Prashant says. He wants perfection. Perfection can not be achieved by speculations.

He has good English. He may not be knowing Gotra history. He may dislike to disclose his own Gotra history. But he can certainly contribute by improving English or Hindi in these articles. If he has faith in Jat brothehood.

Our people are now contributing to this site. By putting simply gotras and villages needs no knowledge of history but it is creating our mapping over the geographical area which we were lacking.

We have to keep the patience and appreciate the people who are devoting time here.

Regards,
 
Surely, Luxman Ji, mapping the contemporary Jat gotras geographically is a good thing in itself. And on that account your efforts should be praised. This work can serve as a reference point for further ethnic studies of our community.
But I would like to add a word of caution when the search enters the domain of interpretation and recording history and the tools of linguistic analysis.The methology in such mattes has to be supported by certain well accepted principles.
Further, a hypothesis needs to be proved first before raising the question of disproving it is raised by the propounder. The onus lies on him. I have mentioned this because I have come across such kind of posturing in some of the discussions.Similar is my reaction to citing evidence.Simply because a book is in print its authority in matters of historical validity is not automatically proved. It has to be acceted by historians in geneal. Applauds coming from least knowledgable quares merely on grounds of loyalties of all sorts should not be misunderstood to mean validity.
I would again plead for caution and moderation.
 
lrburdak said:
Mr Prashant is not replying my question. What is the origin of Vaidwan his own surname.

I am man of Physics and believe that these are not scientifically correct. Indian history is not based on science. That is our limitation. Jat history has not been recorded rather ignored and distorted.

We have first recorded what our historians have put on record in their writings. We have given their references. We know that many things are not logical or with historical evidences. Our approach is to find facts from these writings.

There are many facts hidden in our mythological stories also. We have to find facts from there also.

I know what Prashant says. He wants perfection. Perfection can not be achieved by speculations.

He has good English. He may not be knowing Gotra history. He may dislike to disclose his own Gotra history. But he can certainly contribute by improving English or Hindi in these articles. If he has faith in Jat brothehood.

Our people are now contributing to this site. By putting simply gotras and villages needs no knowledge of history but it is creating our mapping over the geographical area which we were lacking.

We have to keep the patience and appreciate the people who are devoting time here.

Regards,
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Dear Burdak Ji,
I don't intend to drag the things in an err way just for the heck of it. As far as, my gotra knowledge is concerned I want to let you know that i have read almost all of the books that you usually reference in ur articles and I always land up in history section after logging on jatland. But the logic is simple why should i populate the jatwiki with the stuff that doesn't make sense to me. I am not not underestimating the efforts of people here but "fantasy" talks must be discouraged here.
 
prashantacmet said:
Dear Burdak Ji,
I don't intend to drag the things in an err way just for the heck of it. As far as, my gotra knowledge is concerned I want to let you know that i have read almost all of the books that you usually reference in ur articles and I always land up in history section after logging on jatland. But the logic is simple why should i populate the jatwiki with the stuff that doesn't make sense to me. I am not not underestimating the efforts of people here but "fantasy" talks must be discouraged here.
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I had one of my friend who is Baidwan , a Jat sikh .
 
ravinderjeet said:
laxman ji namaskar,
I want to start a new thread on this topic.I am putting some of the point for the discussions.each point can be elaborate and discussed thoroughly.as i toured allover indie (other than north east)and some other Asian countries.I Found that we are something different.other points can be added in this list ,if feel so:
1>body structure is different from other men/women of other hindustaani casts (they may belong to any religion).
2>walking and talking style is different from other cast ,even staying in same village and speaking same language since centuries.
3>most of the jats (about90%) do not believe in idol worshiping (murtipuja)they may belongs to hindu(vedic)sikh or Muslim panth.
4> there is no subcast system among jats ,wherein all other cast in indian sub continent are having sub cast system.all jats worldwide considerd equal.
5>panchyat or khaap system is present in jats only,gana,khaap or self rule system since yodhey time is present in only jats.
6>this is the only race witch do not consider any body higher or lower to them.other cast of Indian subcontinent consider themselves according to brahmenwaadi cast system.
7>social structure and customs are different then other cast of same village.
8>clothes and other dresses were different.
9>only jats are found in whole Eurasia ,no other cast of Indian sub continent is present in this area.
10>most of the fastivel of jats are related with nature and not with deities.
So we are not belongs to any cast system started by brahmnical patriarch,which ware started some 3000 years back.we are an old race of Aryan stock.
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which festivals are we talking about here?
 
drssrana2003 said:
Luxman Ji,
With due regard to Shri B.S. Dahiya for the pioneering work done on by him Jat History, I wish to point out that some 29 years have elapsed since the book was published. Lot of research based on new material discovered in the long interval raise serious doubts abourt several theories put forward by Shri Dahiya. In some cases the very premises need to be relooked. In all humility I would not be able to agree with Dahiya at least in his interpretations of Sanskrit texts in many places. So I would appeal to all those who are interested in a really rational and scietific study of Jat history to examine the new material with an open mind and revise the views wherever possible. Some of the areas that come to my mind are -the issue of Vishnuvardhana of Bijaya inscription, the Vik connection of Harshavardhana, the origin of the Vardhanas from the Aulikaras of Mandasor,almost all rulers of ancient India being described as Jats,the several derivations of the term 'Jat' etc. As far as writing authentic history is concerned caste patriotism has to come to terms with facts (which can be interpreted sympathetically with neutrality of a historian).I mentioned this lest there be complascence on our part. Let me confess that dahiya's book is responsible for my interest in Jat studies. I have read his book several times over. All said and done, I compliment him.
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Rana ji,

Your point is a fair one. I would like to think Jatland wiki is in phase I of the history compilation project, because of the lack of an accurate historical record (as Burdak ji said).

Indeed, I find hard to discard Prashant Vaidwan's point about somewhat unlikely theories being presented as fact on a few pages, even though his style is uncivil here.

I see it as a two part problem - a. do we have the content in there, and b. is the content itself accurate.

Burdak ji and team have done a wonderful job of content creation so far, especially as a lot of the material is rigorously referenced. At some point we may need to slow content creation down and revisit the content and re-edit it, to make sure it eliminates the more unlikely interpretations, or at least separates fact (eg: data around geography, "recent" history etc) with potential theories, and extensions.

Moreover, the idea of the wiki is that anyone can edit it. If you feel a page can be better organized, or certain "theories" are not relevant, then you should go in an make that edits. Obviously, vandalism is not the point. but it is ok to say - one interpretation is this. this is another. or... XYZ has been suggested by some, but is unlikely coz of ABC reasons.

A civilized debate as is happening in this thread helps greatly, but I see a lot of scope for cleaning up the wiki as well.


Nitin
 
No doubt Laxman Ji is doing a great job. But I feel the issues raised by Parshant are also right. Please both dont get offended.

Explanations given by Rana ji are ultimate and logical. Though there are no evidences of historical events but still we must be logical when going for linguistic comparisons. Now one of my friend visited Bhutan and told many similar words as ours but with totally different meanings. So I myself dont have a feeling from inside to read such stuff which is totally based on these linguistic logics. Yes, we can try to find out but the result should be that one will be convinced to read the stuff.

Also I find that Jats are least mentioned or given less space in history. E.g.

Bikaner
http://www.jatland.com/home/Bikaner
Bikaner is a famous historical place in Rajasthan. It was founded by Bika Rathore on the land of Nehra Jat. The Nehra Jat had put a condition that he would give land for the capital of Rathores only if his surname appears in the name of town. Hence the name, Bika + Naira= Bikaner.

http://www.rajasthantourism.gov.in/Destinations/Bikaner.aspx
The history of Bikaner dates back to 1486 when a Rathore prince, Rao Bikaji founded his kingdom. Bikaji was one the five sons of Rao Jodhaji the illustrious founder of Jodhpur.

So if the Nehra Jat thing is right then that should also be included into the govt. site. Can anything be done in this regard by us?

Also, wouldnt the present to past will be the right approach in finding Jats history. Instead of picking ancient granths those themselves have been poluted by many in due course of time by their inputs.

Koe PrithviRaj Chauhan ne Jat kahe de hai apni kitab mein er koe usne sharabi/aisash bata de hai. Also there was very solid controversy regarding Gauri's death by wounds given by Jats near haridwar when the other member pointed out that he died 9 years later and won few battles after India's invasion.
to jib 400-500 sal pahele ki hi history mein itni fantasy involved hai to adi-kal ka kaise hum andaja laga sakte hein.

Laxman Ji and others who are contributing to the wikki, please dont get offended when some member point out such things. Nodoubt you are the ones who are the real contributors. But Please look that there are very less members who might be visiting history section regularly and only a person with regular visit and some interest will point out something and that too in its favour.
 
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