Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[romar]

Dost,

Aap ke adhyana ke anusar Rigveda ki Rachana kab hui?

Kya aapka manana hai ki Rigveda ki rachana se pahle koi Aryans ka ghar baar nahin tha

aur Rigveda ki Rachna ke saath hi Arya achanak pragat ho gaye.

Baat itani sadharan nahin hai, literary sources ke atirikat bhi aneka suchana srot hote hain,

Jinka itihas lekhan me mahatavpuran sarot ke rup mein prayog karke itihas ki sanrachana kee jaati hai.

Mere vichar se Aryans ko swadeshi ya videshi mool ke sidha karane ke liya katibadh log Vedic Aryans ka yah kathan Bhool gaye lagate hain ki,

VASHUDHEVA KUTUMBAKAM;

Agar hum prvagraha chhod kar khule man se etihasik samgri ka mulyankan karne ke liya

tayar tayar nahin hain to kabhi bhi is prashn ka uttar nahin dundh sakte.

Ekmattar samadhan yahi ho sakta hai ki pruratatvik samgri aur literary traditions ka

tulanatamak prikshan kiya jawe aur jo tathya ubhar kar aate hain unhe mana jawe.

Kya hum aisa manane ke liye tayar hai, Pahale is baat ka faisala karana hoga !!

[Koi ek srota ko lekar sarvamanaya niskrash nikalane ki hathdharmita humein chhodani padegi]

Dhanyavaad

Jaisa maine pehle bhi kaha hai ki Rigved ki kriti 1900 BC se pehlu hui hai. Kitna pehle hui hai yeh khaina mushkil hai. Dikkat yeh hai ki Aryon se koi puratatvik samagri nahi judi hai. Isi kaaran inka ghar kahan tha yeh abhi tak nirdharit nahin ho paya hai. Puratatvik samagri ke aabhav mein to kitabon ko hi samman dena padega.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Agar Rigved vaastav me jarathustra ka varnan karta hai to inka kaal Rigved ka ki kaal hona chaiye.

Friend

Humein yah yad rakhna hoga ki Rig Veda Samhita rup mein aane se bahut pahale

verses form mein lambe samaya tak astitava mein raha hai !

Sambandhit sandarbha Rigveda ke kis mandal mein hai, yah

dekhna bhi jaroori hai kyonki iski sabhi richyan aur mandal ek saath nahin likhe gaye.

Dhanyavaad

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Jaisa maine pehle bhi kaha hai ki Rigved ki kriti 1900 BC se pehlu hui hai. Kitna pehle hui hai yeh khaina mushkil hai. Dikkat yeh hai ki Aryon se koi puratatvik samagri nahi judi hai. Isi kaaran inka ghar kahan tha yeh abhi tak nirdharit nahin ho paya hai. Puratatvik samagri ke aabhav mein to kitabon ko hi samman dena padega.

Aryans ke bare mein Bogaz kui, Central Asia [Kazakistan, Uzbekistan, merv etc.], Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan aur adhunik Bharat mein Puratatvik samgri athah matra mein uplabadh hui hai aur ho rahi hai. jiska prchoor matra mein itihaskar kar chuke hain.

Isi thread ke pahle ki kai posts padhenge to aap ko yah baat achhi tarah samajh aa sakti hai.

 

[romar]

Aryans ke bare mein Bogaz kui, Central Asia [Kazakistan, Uzbekistan, merv etc.], Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan aur adhunik Bharat mein Puratatvik samgri athah matra mein uplabadh hui hai aur ho rahi hai. jiska prchoor matra mein itihaskar kar chuke hain.

Isi thread ke pahle ki kai posts padhenge to aap ko yah baat achhi tarah samajh aa sakti hai.

Bogaz kui, Central Asia mein Aryon se sambhandit kuch bhatti mein paki hui mitti ki likhit samagri mili hai aur inme Rigved ke Bhagwano ka naam diya hai. Artharth is likhit samagri ka anusandhan bhi Rigved dekhne ke baad hi kiya ja sakta hai. Iske alawa aur koi puratatvik samagri jo aryon se sambhandit ho paraapt nahi hui hai.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Bogaz kui, Central Asia mein Aryon se sambhandit kuch bhatti mein paki hui mitti ki likhit samagri mili hai aur inme Rigved ke Bhagwano ka naam diya hai. Artharth is likhit samagri ka anusandhan bhi Rigved dekhne ke baad hi kiya ja sakta hai. Iske alawa aur koi puratatvik samagri jo aryon se sambhandit ho paraapt nahi hui hai.

Leaving foreign authors aside, Archaeologists like Prof. B B Lal, Romila Thapar, R.S. Sharma, Bist and so many others have written a lot on the archaeological findings concerning the Aryans.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Bogaz kui, Central Asia mein Aryon se sambhandit kuch bhatti mein paki hui mitti ki likhit samagri mili hai aur inme Rigved ke Bhagwano ka naam diya hai. Artharth is likhit samagri ka anusandhan bhi Rigved dekhne ke baad hi kiya ja sakta hai. Iske alawa aur koi puratatvik samagri jo aryon se sambhandit ho paraapt nahi hui hai.

Kripya Bogaz Kui se prapat samgari ke baare mein thoda vistar se samjhayeiga !

 

[nrao]

Friend

Humein yah yad rakhna hoga ki Rig Veda Samhita rup mein aane se bahut pahale

verses form mein lambe samaya tak astitava mein raha hai !

Sambandhit sandarbha Rigveda ke kis mandal mein hai, yah

dekhna bhi jaroori hai kyonki iski sabhi richyan aur mandal ek saath nahin likhe gaye.

Dhanyavaad

Rajpal ji,

Aap samay ki toh bahut baat karto ho lekin koi samay (dates) kabhi nahin batate hoh. Aisa kyon hai?
uttar kuru ke discussion mein bhi kabhi koi date nahin batai. Kahne ko yeh sab itihas ha. Bina dates ke kaise?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Rajpal ji,

Aap samay ki toh bahut baat karto ho lekin koi samay (dates) kabhi nahin batate hoh. Aisa kyon hai?
uttar kuru ke discussion mein bhi kabhi koi date nahin batai. Kahne ko yeh sab itihas ha. Bina dates ke kaise?

Friend,


Thanks for posing good question. Agreed that without chronological order historical narration has little value.


My posts have more or less been revolving round this issue.

Also so far I have been soliciting the views of the participants including your goodself first to locate the original abode of the 'Aryans'.

As regards Uttarkuru or Aryana or Meru region or Central Asia, do you agree to this region as probable abode of the Indo-Aryans or not.

If this is done to the satisfaction of historical tests/data/research, the issue of dating the same would cause no problem.

Regards

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Bogaz kui, Central Asia mein Aryon se sambhandit kuch bhatti mein paki hui mitti ki likhit samagri mili hai aur inme Rigved ke Bhagwano ka naam diya hai. Artharth is likhit samagri ka anusandhan bhi Rigved dekhne ke baad hi kiya ja sakta hai. Iske alawa aur koi puratatvik samagri jo aryon se sambhandit ho paraapt nahi hui hai.

Friend,

Boghaz-keui inscriptions [1360 B C] record a treaty between the Hittite king and the Mitanni king who was defeated in a battle. The Mitanni gods [Indra, Uruwna or Aruna, Miittra, Nasaattiia] alongwith Babylonian deities are invoked to protecgt the treaty. There is another document from Bogha-keui which deals with horse breeding manual and contains a series of Aryan numerals-aika, teras, panzas, satta, nav.

It may be noted that the words do not exhibit the changes which distinguish Iranians from the Indian forms, indicating that the words were borrowed either from the Indians or from their ancestors before bifurcation into Indians and Iranians.


This evidence suggests that 'there was in Mitanni, after about 1450 B C., a dynasty with Aryan names, worshiping Aryan gods, founded upon the power of their Aryan troops, the maryanni, and characterized by their superior horse breeding.'---Herzfeld, Iran in the Ancient East, p. 191 quoted by A D Puslker, India and the outside world before Asoka in The Cultural Heritage of India, 148.

On the basis of this evidence Macdonnell, Keith and others maintain that they were a branch of the Aryans on their way to India from Central Europe. But Jacobi, Pargiter, and Konow opine that the Mitanni must have reached Babylonia by sea and settled there.

In view of this divergence of opinion further research is needed to settle the issue.

Regards

 

[nrao]

Friend,

Boghaz-keui inscriptions [1360 B C] record a treaty between the Hittite king and the Mitanni king who was defeated in a battle. The Mitanni gods [Indra, Uruwna or Aruna, Miittra, Nasaattiia] alongwith Babylonian deities are invoked to protecgt the treaty. There is another document from Bogha-keui which deals with horse breeding manual and contains a series of Aryan numerals-aika, teras, panzas, satta, nav.

It may be noted that the words do not exhibit the changes which distinguish Iranians from the Indian forms, indicating that the words were borrowed either from the Indians or from their ancestors before bifurcation into Indians and Iranians.


This evidence suggests that 'there was in Mitanni, after about 1450 B C., a dynasty with Aryan names, worshiping Aryan gods, founded upon the power of their Aryan troops, the maryanni, and characterized by their superior horse breeding.'---Herzfeld, Iran in the Ancient East, p. 191 quoted by A D Puslker, India and the outside world before Asoka in The Cultural Heritage of India, 148.

On the basis of this evidence Macdonnell, Keith and others maintain that they were a branch of the Aryans on their way to India from Central Europe. But Jacobi, Pargiter, and Konow opine that the Mitanni must have reached Babylonia by sea and settled there.

In view of this divergence of opinion further research is needed to settle the issue.

Regards

Here is my view, a view from somebody who is not a scholar or academic so a view from sidelines:

One way to look at it and explain it is to say that Aryans from India may have reached this area by that time 1400-1300 BCE as quite evident from these inscriptions. So 'Aryans' moving west out of India, would have an intermediate place, which is western Afghanistan and eastern Iran, where earliest dates of Avesta is alleged to have been composed in and around 1700 BCE, which is generally accepted. Then 300-400 years later same tribes, moving out of India as mentioned in RigVed, should have reached Asia minor, places like Bogaz koy and places of Hittites and Mittani, as these inscriptions so clearly state by 1400-1300 BCE. You are absolutely right, more research is needed indeed.

Good that you quoted Puselker, and it makes sense that he had these views but seems that view is quite dated now. He wrote that in 1940s or 50s, and Aryan invasion (not even migration) was rampant among scholars. Most orientalists, are abandoning invasion and moving to migration mode but archaeological and genetic data does not corroborate that view. I think even literary evidence does not support it also.

Seems, only thing left is linguistic views, for which I am not qualified.

Would like to get both Ranbir and your views. Once again, I could be completely wrong but at least it is another view point.

 

[nrao]

Mera abhipraya bharat ke adhunik historians se tha na ki yahan jo vartalap chal raha hai. Kya aap is baat se bilkul sahmat nahin hai ki bharat ke bade historian paschimi deshon ke historians ka hawala dene mein kuch garv sa mahsus karten hain chahe unki baat kitni galat hi kyon no ho?

Nehru Vishwavidyalaya Nayi Dilli aur Aligarh Vishwavidyalaya ke sabhi historians yeh maante hain ki Arya log bhar se aaye the aur unhone bharat per kabja kiya. Yeh log angrejon ka samarthan kar rahe hain. Aise vyvahar ke piche kya kaaran hai?

I do not know why you are singling out DU and JNU historians. Talageri in his later book takes to task authors like Pusalker from Pune, Bhargava from Raj Univ, K D Sethna who was mostly at Pondicherry, B K Ghosh, linguist, probably from Calcutta, S K Chatterji Serampore College and maybe Calcutta, Bhadriraju Krishnamurti from Hyderabad and Osamania and a few more joh yeh mante hain ki Arya bhar se aaye the. So your assertion does not make sense. aisa kyon?

 

[nrao]

Friend,


Thanks for posing good question. Agreed that without chronological order historical narration has little value.


My posts have more or less been revolving round this issue.

Also so far I have been soliciting the views of the participants including your goodself first to locate the original abode of the 'Aryans'.

As regards Uttarkuru or Aryana or Meru region or Central Asia, do you agree to this region as probable abode of the Indo-Aryans or not.

If this is done to the satisfaction of historical tests/data/research, the issue of dating the same would cause no problem.

Regards

Rajpal ji,

After going through some resources a bit more, it seems that Uttrakuru location really needs to be resolved. I can agree with you about some location either in mountains or north of it. Beyond or north of mountains could mean either north of Himalayas or north of Hindukush. Some search results:

i) Aitareya Brahmana makes first reference to Uttarakuru and Uttaramadra as real-life Janapadas and informs us that these two nations lied beyond the Himalaya ranges (Hindukush). The Aitreya Brahmana adduces these two people as an example of republican (vairajiya) nations, where whole Janapada took the consecration of rulership.

tasmad atasyam udichya dishi ye ke ca pren himvantam janapada uttarakurva uttaramadra iti vairajyaya te.abhishichyante — (Aitareya Brahmana, VIII/14)

Aitreya Brahmana again notes that the Uttarakuru was a devak-setra or divine land (VIII.23)

ii) From Puran:

In later literature like Puranas, the Uttarakurus are sometimes described as mythical people and at other times their description seems indeed to belong to real world.
The Bhagvata Purana notes the Uttakuru as the land of the northern Kurus. They are separate people from the Dakisha Kurus i.e the Kurus of Hastinapura.
The Brahmanda Purana and Vayu Purana state that the Pururavas, the ancestors of the Puru race once lived with Urvasi in Uttarakuru.
In Matsya Purana, Uttarakuru is descibed as Tiratha.

Few references from Mahabharat, Ramayan and even Buddhist literature are also cited:

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Uttarakuru/id/578788

Just one correction from one of your earlier posts. The river name it appears is not Sita but Sila.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

According to link given by you above, the sub link http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Uttarakuru_-_Foreign_Sources_on_Uttarakuru/id/601367 ,

shows that:

"Ptolemy's Geography refers to Ottorokorai (Uttarakuru) tribe,Ottorokora as a city, and Ottorokoras as a river.

The Ottorokora city is shown as located at longitude of 165o 37' 25" E.

Ptolemy has also referred to one mountain by the same name and fixes at with longitude from 169o 39' to 176o 39' E.


The Attacori of Pliny probably also refers to the Uttarakuru people and their country.


Ammianus Marcellinus refers to Uttarakuru as Ottorogorae."

Could anyone help us in identifying the modern name of the area/region/place mentioned in the above entry?

Thanks

 

[drrajpalsingh]

I think Mahabharata leaves no scope for doubt to identify the land of Uttrakuru, which certainly was not in Indian sub continent of today. The link
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Uttarakuru_-_Mahabharata_and_Uttarakuru/id/601365 We thankfully acknowledging the source reproduce the relevant information for the perusal of the readers hereinunder:

"Mahabharata sometimes figures the Uttarakuru as a fairy land. It is stated to be the ultimate abode of the blessed souls. The souls of the blessed ones and the Kshatriyas go to Uttarakuru after death (MBH 9/5/36-37; MBH 13/54).
Adiparva of Mahabharata refers to a practice of free love among the women of Uttarakuru, like the one followed by birds and the beasts, and is not regarded sinful as it is stated to have the approval of the rishis and the sanction of antiquity (I.122.1-10) .
At other times, the epic describes the Uttarakurus as real entity and associates them with the real Kurus (MBH I.108.10).
The ancestors of the Kauravas and Pandavas had originally migrated from Uttarakuru (MBH 1/187/28).
At the Rajasuya Sacrifice performed by king Yudhishtra, the kings of north-west had brought gifts, some of which belonged to Uttarakuru(MBH II.52.2-7).
After reducing the Kambojas and Daradas on south of Hindukush, Arjuna had proceeded to Trans-Hindukush countries and fought with the Lohas, Parama-Kambojas and the Rishikas i.e. Tusharas (II.27/23-25). Thereafter, Arjuna encountered the Limprushas, Haratakas and the Uttarakurus all neighboring tribes and all in trans-Himalaya region (MBH II.28.9-12)" .

It seems to certify the earlier findings recorded by us in posts under this very thread.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Rajpal ji,

After going through some resources a bit more, it seems that Uttrakuru location really needs to be resolved. I can agree with you about some location either in mountains or north of it. Beyond or north of mountains could mean either north of Himalayas or north of Hindukush. Some search results:

i) Aitareya Brahmana makes first reference to Uttarakuru and Uttaramadra as real-life Janapadas and informs us that these two nations lied beyond the Himalaya ranges (Hindukush). The Aitreya Brahmana adduces these two people as an example of republican (vairajiya) nations, where whole Janapada took the consecration of rulership.

tasmad atasyam udichya dishi ye ke ca pren himvantam janapada uttarakurva uttaramadra iti vairajyaya te.abhishichyante — (Aitareya Brahmana, VIII/14)

Aitreya Brahmana again notes that the Uttarakuru was a devak-setra or divine land (VIII.23)

ii) From Puran:

In later literature like Puranas, the Uttarakurus are sometimes described as mythical people and at other times their description seems indeed to belong to real world.
The Bhagvata Purana notes the Uttakuru as the land of the northern Kurus. They are separate people from the Dakisha Kurus i.e the Kurus of Hastinapura.
The Brahmanda Purana and Vayu Purana state that the Pururavas, the ancestors of the Puru race once lived with Urvasi in Uttarakuru.
In Matsya Purana, Uttarakuru is descibed as Tiratha.

Few references from Mahabharat, Ramayan and even Buddhist literature are also cited:

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Uttarakuru/id/578788


http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Uttarakuru_-_Mahabharata_and_Uttarakuru/id/601365


Just one correction from one of your earlier posts. The river name it appears is not Sita but Sila.

Thanks for corroborating our identification by means of this very important link.

After the identification of the Uttarkuru as the ancient region belonging to the Aryan Tribes, now the question of chronology has to be taken into consideration for quick resolution of the issue of the Ancient Abode and time their migration to India and Iran.

 

[romar]

Here is my view, a view from somebody who is not a scholar or academic so a view from sidelines:

One way to look at it and explain it is to say that Aryans from India may have reached this area by that time 1400-1300 BCE as quite evident from these inscriptions. So 'Aryans' moving west out of India, would have an intermediate place, which is western Afghanistan and eastern Iran, where earliest dates of Avesta is alleged to have been composed in and around 1700 BCE, which is generally accepted. Then 300-400 years later same tribes, moving out of India as mentioned in RigVed, should have reached Asia minor, places like Bogaz koy and places of Hittites and Mittani, as these inscriptions so clearly state by 1400-1300 BCE. You are absolutely right, more research is needed indeed.

Good that you quoted Puselker, and it makes sense that he had these views but seems that view is quite dated now. He wrote that in 1940s or 50s, and Aryan invasion (not even migration) was rampant among scholars. Most orientalists, are abandoning invasion and moving to migration mode but archaeological and genetic data does not corroborate that view. I think even literary evidence does not support it also.

Seems, only thing left is linguistic views, for which I am not qualified.

Would like to get both Ranbir and your views. Once again, I could be completely wrong but at least it is another view point.

Sawal yeh uth tha hai ki kya Bogaz Koy mein hi aryon ki bhasha ke avshesh milte hain? Agar aap Kassite logon ke rajaon ke naam dekhen to unme bhi Bhartiya Aryon ke naam milte hain.

 

[romar]

Thanks for corroborating our identification by means of this very important link.

After the identification of the Uttarkuru as the ancient region belonging to the Aryan Tribes, now the question of chronology has to be taken into consideration for quick resolution of the issue of the Ancient Abode and time their migration to India and Iran.

Aapki baat mein kuch sanshay hai. Sawal yeh hai ki kisi Pradesh ka naam Uttarkuru kab diya jayega? Jab Kuru naam ka pradesh ho aur wahan ke log chal kar uske uttar mein bas gaye hon. Agar Uttar kuru mein sabse pehli basasat hoti to kurukshetra ka naam dakshin kuru hona chaiye tha aur Uttar kuru ka naam Kuru.

 

[romar]

I do not know why you are singling out DU and JNU historians. Talageri in his later book takes to task authors like Pusalker from Pune, Bhargava from Raj Univ, K D Sethna who was mostly at Pondicherry, B K Ghosh, linguist, probably from Calcutta, S K Chatterji Serampore College and maybe Calcutta, Bhadriraju Krishnamurti from Hyderabad and Osamania and a few more joh yeh mante hain ki Arya bhar se aaye the. So your assertion does not make sense. aisa kyon?

Jaankari ke liye dhanyavad. Jitna mujhe pata tha maine uske adhaar pe likha thha.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Aapki baat mein kuch sanshay hai. Sawal yeh hai ki kisi Pradesh ka naam Uttarkuru kab diya jayega? Jab Kuru naam ka pradesh ho aur wahan ke log chal kar uske uttar mein bas gaye hon. Agar Uttar kuru mein sabse pehli basasat hoti to kurukshetra ka naam dakshin kuru hona chaiye tha aur Uttar kuru ka naam Kuru.

Dost,

Purvagrah chhod kar khule mann se gyan ka darwaja khatkhatyenge to sab sandeh khatam ho jayrnge.


Lekin ab tak ke aap ki posts kuchh us disha ki aur badhne ka sanket nahin de rahi.

Phir bhi hum injar karenge ki

Aap itihas ki baat kab manana shuru karane ki hum pe kripa karenge!

Dhanyavad

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Jaankari ke liye dhanyavad. Jitna mujhe pata tha maine uske adhaar pe likha thha.

Kya aap batane ki kripa karenge ki DU and JNU ke kis kis itihaskaar ne Aryans ke baare mein kya likha hai aur usmein galat kya hai; taki use duroosta karne ke liya kadam uthaye ja saken.