Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[drrajpalsingh]

Sawal yeh uth tha hai ki kya Bogaz Koy mein hi aryon ki bhasha ke avshesh milte hain? Agar aap Kassite logon ke rajaon ke naam dekhen to unme bhi Bhartiya Aryon ke naam milte hain.

Dost,

Yahi to vastavikta hai ki kisi jamane mein Arya bhasha bolne wale log ikathe niwas karate the;

aur saath hi aise pramaan humari khoj ki pushti karate hain,

isme galat kya hai !

Kripa karake Kassite logon se sambhndhit jaankaari share kijiyaga, aap ki badi meharbaani hogi.

Dhanyavad.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dr. Singh, you have provided good information and covered a lot of ground so far so naturally there are questions. While the case made for location of Uttarakuru is impressive, I do not think it is conclusive. First natural question has to be with time frame. In all the links that you have provided so far, date or timeframe is missing. That is very important.

For instance, if you say that these "Aryans" came from outside, then do you agree with current theory of circa 1200 BC or are you talking about earlier times. Since you cited Purans as one of the evidence, it may be important to take that view regarding that. Current view of various tribes is best summed in following url:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Formation_of_Kuru_tribe.JPG

This deals with arriving at Kuru tribes. I arrive to our current date using this method.

My understanding is that there are 40 generations of Puru/Bharat tribe followed by Kuru before we finally come to Kauravas as we know it. If you take 3 generations in a century using present calendar (giving each person about 33 years of life expectancy), then 40 generations will provide around 1200 years so moving into 3rd millennium BC
for the start of this line of history (I am using 1000 BC as the base year of current Mahabharat war). Do you place Uttarakurus in this time frame or some other time-frame, like before, after or during. If they arrived earlier than say Puru/Bharat times, say around 2500 BC and they 'invaded' then who did they invade as Harappans were not really in decline at this. If you place them later then where do you place them in the above geneology, if you think that makes sense at all. We can discard my speculation if all of above is nonsense. Dr Bhagwan Singh, who I quoted earlier in reference to Dr Witzel and the conference at the India Internal center, claims in his book, that both Vedic believers and non-vedic socities were living at the same place. Do uttarkurus have a prior time frame than Harappan timeframe?
......................................................................................................

Friend,

To recapitulate the earlier discussion, I have chosen this post.

In the light of the prior and subsequent discussion on the issue we also tentatively agree that:

First, that c1000 B.C. is the date of Mahabharata;

Secondly, it is agreeable that Uttra Kuru lay beyond Indian frontiers and Hindukusha towards its north.

Please see, earlier post : http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...ogy-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page4

and

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...ogy-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page4

Third, we have to find out the chronology of the migration of the so called Iranian-Aryans and Indo-Aryan groups from their original abode in Central Asia, the region between the Uttarkuru and upto Hindukush mountains i.e. area identifiable around Merv as headquarters.

The Deva-Asura Yudhas and the extension of 'good lands' by Zorastura as mentioned in the traditions of the two groups of the original inhabitants of Aryans of the yore seem to hold key to open the knot the riddle. Archaeology could perhaps help us to some extent to further substantiate the findings of the study and control its pace towards unwarranted results.

These are my postulations. which could serve as working hypothesis.

Anti-thesis i.e. opposite evidences could disprove them and conversely positive references and evidences could result in a workable thesis.

Therefore, an appeal to participants to come forward and contribute their mite in this cause of digging out historical facts.

Thanks and regards

 

[nrao]

Thanks for corroborating our identification by means of this very important link.

After the identification of the Uttarkuru as the ancient region belonging to the Aryan Tribes, now the question of chronology has to be taken into consideration for quick resolution of the issue of the Ancient Abode and time their migration to India and Iran.

Itni jaldi nahin Rajpalji.

I do not know why you jumped from Kuru, especially Uttarakuru, to Aryans and equate the two. This is a big mistake. I am sure you recognize that Kurus came much later in the picture as far as Ishkvaku and Bharat tribes are concerned who are the Aryans. I still go with the Puranic/Ramayan geneology for Ishkvaku moving from east to west. Several generations later after the Dasrajan yudh (I think about 40 generation later), Kurus come into the picture who probably had Uttarakuru as there abode and as was the tradition took up the title 'Arya'. Who knows they may not be the same people who spread out earlier and went towards west and north west and maybe came back. Puranic and Epic geneologies confirm that Kurus followed Purus to rule Brahamvarta (region around Kurukshetra) but they never claim that they were their sons. Above link says Brahmand Puran does but nowhere else to you find it. Both Ranbir and you please try to correct me here.

Nowhere should that be taken to mean even the much earlier Aryans were in Uttarakuru. 'Uttarakuru' word finds no mention in Ved or Ramayan, I think this occurred much later in Mahabharat, seems like Aitreya Brahmana being the first one. MBh and Purans picked it up later. If you say that Aryans also came from Uttarakuru, because that is the abode of Kurus then that should be viewed as wrong and mistaken, I think.

I think you are in a rush to somehow proove your pre-established notion that Aryans have to be from Central Asia or outside of India. Such ossification will not help.

 

[nrao]

According to link given by you above, the sub link http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Uttarakuru_-_Foreign_Sources_on_Uttarakuru/id/601367 ,

shows that:

"Ptolemy's Geography refers to Ottorokorai (Uttarakuru) tribe,Ottorokora as a city, and Ottorokoras as a river.

The Ottorokora city is shown as located at longitude of 165o 37' 25" E.

Ptolemy has also referred to one mountain by the same name and fixes at with longitude from 169o 39' to 176o 39' E.


The Attacori of Pliny probably also refers to the Uttarakuru people and their country.


Ammianus Marcellinus refers to Uttarakuru as Ottorogorae."

Could anyone help us in identifying the modern name of the area/region/place mentioned in the above entry?

Thanks

It would be most erroneous to use Ptolemy to answer to resolve Uttarakuru. He lived in around 150 AD, why even use him as a resource. I cannot believe that you will trust such a resource when you have Ved, Brahamanas, MBh and Puran to discuss it. I cannot believe that you were willing to ignore excellent paper by Tapas Pal earlier and now you are quoting and running after these Greek authors.

टोलमी और मारसेलिनस ने कूट मे राखो |

 

[nrao]

Thanks for corroborating our identification by means of this very important link.

After the identification of the Uttarkuru as the ancient region belonging to the Aryan Tribes, now the question of chronology has to be taken into consideration for quick resolution of the issue of the Ancient Abode and time their migration to India and Iran.

Phir jaldi baji. Not sure, what you aim to achieve with 'quick resolution'.
Please first try to corroborate what is given in that link and then provide your reasons of why?

Now I am thinking that I should not have provided that link in the first place if you rush like this.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Itni jaldi nahin Rajpalji.

I do not know why you jumped from Kuru, especially Uttarakuru, to Aryans and equate the two. This is a big mistake. I am sure you recognize that Kurus came much later in the picture as far as Ishkvaku and Bharat tribes are concerned who are the Aryans. I still go with the Puranic/Ramayan geneology for Ishkvaku moving from east to west. Several generations later after the Dasrajan yudh (I think about 40 generation later), Kurus come into the picture who probably had Uttarakuru as there abode and as was the tradition took up the title 'Arya'. Who knows they may not be the same people who spread out earlier and went towards west and north west and maybe came back. Puranic and Epic geneologies confirm that Kurus followed Purus to rule Brahamvarta (region around Kurukshetra) but they never claim that they were their sons. Above link says Brahmand Puran does but nowhere else to you find it. Both Ranbir and you please try to correct me here.

Nowhere should that be taken to mean even the much earlier Aryans were in Uttarakuru. 'Uttarakuru' word finds no mention in Ved or Ramayan, I think this occurred much later in Mahabharat, seems like Aitreya Brahmana being the first one. MBh and Purans picked it up later. If you say that Aryans also came from Uttarakuru, because that is the abode of Kurus then that should be viewed as wrong and mistaken, I think.

I think you are in a rush to somehow proove your pre-established notion that Aryans have to be from Central Asia or outside of India. Such ossification will not help.

Friend,

Let me first of all clarify one crucial point agitating your mind that I have one or the other pre-conceived idea on the issue of ancient abode of the Aryans, answer to this question is a big NO.

Testimony of this is that if I had one than there was no need for me to waste a lot of time and energy of the participants to indulge in this nerve breaking discussion over a fairly long spread period of time.

Instead of advising me to consider Kurus, Pauravas or various tribes involved in Das Rajan Yudhas as separate people than to what have been designated as "Aryas'' ,

kindly take into consideration the fact that they were as important members of the same family as those speaking Aryan group of language at that time; nothing more nor less.

Perhaps, the misconception arises because some people believe in 'Aryan Race' theory. This theory has long been rejected and has no locus standi in discussions of today.

Therefore kindly remember, 'Aryan Race' has no concern in this matter, only linguistic groups living somewhere together in the yore, which later on scattered in different directions on various continents are the persons about whom we are talking about under this thread.

If we accept this postulation, then we can move in the direction of finding the truth about their original home of the yore.

Otherwise we shall continue to grope in the dark corners of unfathomable holes of lost history.

Forefathers of Indian Aryans clearly had an open mind when they stated it in unquestionable words that :Vasudhewkutumbakam i.e. All the [people living on] earth is my Family!

Thanks and regards.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Phir jaldi baji. Not sure, what you aim to achieve with 'quick resolution'.
Please first try to corroborate what is given in that link and then provide your reasons of why?

Now I am thinking that I should not have provided that link in the first place if you rush like this.

Friend,

Let us take as much time to argue for or against any of the theory as required.

I am not in hurry and am open to any new twist or turn in findings supported by the sources taken as a whole.

You must not regret on posting the link because you have lost nothing due to it as the debate and discussion is open even now and will remain so till the goal is achieved. Moreover, it is no infringement of privacy or personal rights of any of us. We thankfully acknowledge your contribution to furtherance of the discussion. So feel free from the burden of any impropriety on this count. So cheer up and come out with newer contributions to sort out the puzzle.

Thanks.

 

[romar]

Main Navin ki baat se sahmat hoon ki jald baaji theek nai hai. Abhi tak aisa prateet ho raha hai ki Rigved mein jo likha gaya uspe jyada tavajjo nahin di jaa rahi apitu uske baad ke granthon mein jo likha hai unpe jyada tavajjo di ja rahi hai.
Ptolemy, Puraan, Mahabharat ityadi Rigved ke bahut baad aaye to in logon aur granthon se yeh nishkarsh kaise nikala ja sakta hai ki Rigved ke Arya kahan se aaye?

 

[romar]

Forefathers of Indian Aryans clearly had an open mind when they stated it in unquestionable words that :Vasudhewkutumbakam i.e. All the [people living on] earth is my Family!

Thanks and regards.

Vasudha Kutumbakam ek sabse kam samjha hua sanskrit ka vakya hai. Aap ise jarur padhiye: http://bharatendu.com/2008/08/29/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva-kutumbakam-1-hitopadesha/

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Vasudha Kutumbakam ek sabse kam samjha hua sanskrit ka vakya hai. Aap ise jarur padhiye: http://bharatendu.com/2008/08/29/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva-kutumbakam-1-hitopadesha/

The full quote from the link is :

​

ayaM nijaH paroveti gaNanA laghu-chetasAM
udAra charitAnAM tu vasudhaiva kuTumbhakaM


["This is my own and that a stranger" - is the calculation of the narrow-minded
For the magnanimous-hearts however, the entire earth is but a family] ''


​

Dear friend,

The rest of the discussion in the quoted link by a person relate to proving his partisan individual views .

So no further comments desirable.

Thanks.

 

[romar]

The full quote from the link is :

​

ayaM nijaH paroveti gaNanA laghu-chetasAM
udAra charitAnAM tu vasudhaiva kuTumbhakaM


["This is my own and that a stranger" - is the calculation of the narrow-minded
For the magnanimous-hearts however, the entire earth is but a family] ''


​

Dear friend,

The rest of the discussion in the quoted link by a person relate to proving his partisan individual views .

So no further comments desirable.

Thanks.

Yeh shabd ek billi ne kahe chuujo ko khane ke liye aur ek lomdi ne kahe ek hiran ko khaane ke liye. Artharth vasudhev kutumbakam ek bahana tha dusre ko bewkoof banane ke liye.

Ise aur kisi tarah nahi samjha ja sakta.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Main Navin ki baat se sahmat hoon ki jald baaji theek nai hai. Abhi tak aisa prateet ho raha hai ki Rigved mein jo likha gaya uspe jyada tavajjo nahin di jaa rahi apitu uske baad ke granthon mein jo likha hai unpe jyada tavajjo di ja rahi hai.
Ptolemy, Puraan, Mahabharat ityadi Rigved ke bahut baad aaye to in logon aur granthon se yeh nishkarsh kaise nikala ja sakta hai ki Rigved ke Arya kahan se aaye?

Friend,

I agree with every bit of what you say regarding haste on my part.

But listen, please.

In addition to Rigveda a number of evidences have emerged on the Aryan Abode question.

Open up your mind and do not get swayed by the holy nature of our scripture.

We are deducing historical evidences/references from the holiest of the holy Vedic Samhita.

The oldest forms of Aryan languages used by people of yore have appeared on the scene as you are not unaware if we go by posts you have earlier subscribed.

We must see the writing on the wall and remember :

BILLY KO AATE DEKHAKAR YADI KABOOTAR ANKHEN BAND KARKE YAH SAMJHANE LAGE

KI

USKI IS KARARVAHI SE BILLI KO DHIKHANA BAND HO JAYAGA

TO

USKI YAH HARQAT USKI SAMAJH KI KAMI HI KAHALAYEGI.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Yeh shabd ek billi ne kahe chuujo ko khane ke liye aur ek lomdi ne kahe ek hiran ko khaane ke liye. Artharth vasudhev kutumbakam ek bahana tha dusre ko bewkoof banane ke liye.

Ise aur kisi tarah nahi samjha ja sakta.

FRIEND

FORGET ABOUT MY POST ON VASUDHEW KUTUMBKAM.

I REGRET HAVING POSTED THAT;

PERHAPS THIS IS SUFFICIENT TO CLOSE THAT ABERRATION.

Now coming back to main issue of the thread;

WE ARE DISCUSSING ANCIENT HISTORY NOT THE HISTORY OF FAUNA;
PLEASE RELAX AND JOIN US WITH AS USUAL YOUR SERIOUS CONTRIBUTIONS.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

It would be most erroneous to use Ptolemy to answer to resolve Uttarakuru. He lived in around 150 AD, why even use him as a resource. I cannot believe that you will trust such a resource when you have Ved, Brahamanas, MBh and Puran to discuss it. I cannot believe that you were willing to ignore excellent paper by Tapas Pal earlier and now you are quoting and running after these Greek authors.

टोलमी और मारसेलिनस ने कूट मे राखो |

Please Relax Friend,

If sources penned by later writers corroborate the earlier sources, there is no harm to use them to substantiate your hypotheses !

Thanks

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Sawal yeh uth tha hai ki kya Bogaz Koy mein hi aryon ki bhasha ke avshesh milte hain? Agar aap Kassite logon ke rajaon ke naam dekhen to unme bhi Bhartiya Aryon ke naam milte hain.

While we discuss India's relations with outside world in the ancient times, in addition to Boghaz keui inscription [1360 B C], another anterior recorded evidence emerges in the form of Kassite documents [c. 1760 B.C.] shows names of Indo-Aryan dieties like Surias, Marutas, Bugas. Moreover, it is found that these Kassites introduced the use of horse in Babylonia for drawing the chariots.

Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

While we discuss India's relations with outside world in the ancient times, in addition to Boghaz keui inscription [1360 B C], another anterior recorded evidence emerges in the form of Kassite documents [c. 1760 B.C.] shows names of Indo-Aryan dieties like Surias, Marutas, Bugas. Moreover, it is found that these Kassites introduced the use of horse in Babylonia for drawing the chariots.

Thanks.

In addition, Tel-el-Amarna tablets [c. 1460 B.C.] refer to the rulers among the Mitanni on the Upper Euphrates who bore names like Atatama, Suttarna, Dusratta, which are Aryan. This evidence suggests that Mitannis were Aryan.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Bogaz kui, Central Asia mein Aryon se sambhandit kuch bhatti mein paki hui mitti ki likhit samagri mili hai aur inme Rigved ke Bhagwano ka naam diya hai. Artharth is likhit samagri ka anusandhan bhi Rigved dekhne ke baad hi kiya ja sakta hai. Iske alawa aur koi puratatvik samagri jo aryon se sambhandit ho paraapt nahi hui hai.

The documents coming from Babylonia and Asia Minor dating from c.1760 B C to 1360 B C as quoted in the above three posts are sufficient testimony of inter-relationship of Indo-Aryans and the Aryans inhabiting the former region.

Perhaps, we in India have not been able to lay our hands to any inscription of the Indo aryans of Proto-historic/Pre-historic times.

Could someone tell about the old available inscription, if any, belonging to the Indo-Aryans with its date.

This evidence further suggests the need to go to earlier periods to locate their original abode and the reasons of their migration in different directions and also the chronology and routes followed by various groups in the Proto-historic and Pre-Historic times !

 

[romar]

The documents coming from Babylonia and Asia Minor dating from c.1760 B C to 1360 B C as quoted in the above three posts are sufficient testimony of inter-relationship of Indo-Aryans and the Aryans inhabiting the former region.

Perhaps, we in India have not been able to lay our hands to any inscription of the Indo aryans of Proto-historic/Pre-historic times.

Could someone tell about the old available inscription, if any, belonging to the Indo-Aryans with its date.

This evidence further suggests the need to go to earlier periods to locate their original abode and the reasons of their migration in different directions and also the chronology and routes followed by various groups in the Proto-historic and Pre-Historic times !

Bhu garbh vaigyanikon ke anusaar Saraswati nadi 3000 BC ke aas paas tutni shuru ho gayi. 1900 BC tak pahunchte pahunchte yeh nadi behni band ho gayi. Rigved mein Saraswati nadi ke tootne ka koi jikar nahi hai. Isme likha hai ki yeh nadi pahadon se samudra tak bade veg se chalti hai. Isse to yahi pratit hota hai ki Rigved kaal mei Saraswati nadi bina khandit hue samudra tak pahunchti thi aur Rigved ka nirmaan 3000 BC se pehle hua. Iske viprit Mahabharata mein likha hai ki Saraswati jagah jagah par toot gayi. Artharth Mahabharata ka nirmaan 3000 BC se 1900BC ke beech mei hua.

Agar aap Bogaz Kue aur Kassite Aryon ke saboot ko dekhe to yeh arya 1800 BC aur 1200 BC ke beech mei the. In tathyon ke madhya najar to yeh saabit hota hai ki Bharat mei Arye log 3000 BC se pehle thhe aur yahan se uth kar yeh log anya deshon me gaye. Saraswati ka tootna aur sookhna inke desh chhodne ka kaaran ho sakta hai.

 

[nrao]

The documents coming from Babylonia and Asia Minor dating from c.1760 B C to 1360 B C as quoted in the above three posts are sufficient testimony of inter-relationship of Indo-Aryans and the Aryans inhabiting the former region.

Perhaps, we in India have not been able to lay our hands to any inscription of the Indo aryans of Proto-historic/Pre-historic times.

Could someone tell about the old available inscription, if any, belonging to the Indo-Aryans with its date.

This evidence further suggests the need to go to earlier periods to locate their original abode and the reasons of their migration in different directions and also the chronology and routes followed by various groups in the Proto-historic and Pre-Historic times !

Rajpal ji,

Aabhi tak Sumerian ya Hittite ka aisa kuch inscription nahin mila hai Indus valley mein aur uske baad mein. 3000 se upar sthano mein khudai hoh chuki har, abhi tak Babylonia ya uske aas paas ka kuch nahin mila hai. Agar yeh Arya wahan se uth ke aaye the aur kubh inscriptions likha karte the toh phir unhon ne eakdam yahan aakar inscriptions likna kyon chod diya. Kya kuch adhik som rus pee rahe the kya.

Haan yeh baat awashye hai ki, Harappa ke avshesh jaise ki beads, seals ityaadi, pashchim mein har jagah prachoor matra mein mile hain, Jiroft mein, Mesopotamia mein, (Babylonia aur Sumer mein), Dilmun mein. Aisa kyon hai? Isse toh yahi prateet hota hai ki log yahan se uth kar wahan gaye the naa ki wahan se yahan aaye the.

Regarding search for earlier abode of Aryans, evidence points to Saraswati region of Haryana as the abode of Aryans who were influenced by tribes that moved from east (if you would recall Kasiraj). Phir bhi khoj jaari hai.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Bhu garbh vaigyanikon ke anusaar Saraswati nadi 3000 BC ke aas paas tutni shuru ho gayi. 1900 BC tak pahunchte pahunchte yeh nadi behni band ho gayi. Rigved mein Saraswati nadi ke tootne ka koi jikar nahi hai. Isme likha hai ki yeh nadi pahadon se samudra tak bade veg se chalti hai. Isse to yahi pratit hota hai ki Rigved kaal mei Saraswati nadi bina khandit hue samudra tak pahunchti thi aur Rigved ka nirmaan 3000 BC se pehle hua. Iske viprit Mahabharata mein likha hai ki Saraswati jagah jagah par toot gayi. Artharth Mahabharata ka nirmaan 3000 BC se 1900BC ke beech mei hua.

Agar aap Bogaz Kue aur Kassite Aryon ke saboot ko dekhe to yeh arya 1800 BC aur 1200 BC ke beech mei the. In tathyon ke madhya najar to yeh saabit hota hai ki Bharat mei Arye log 3000 BC se pehle thhe aur yahan se uth kar yeh log anya deshon me gaye. Saraswati ka tootna aur sookhna inke desh chhodne ka kaaran ho sakta hai.

Dost,

Agaar aap aitihasik sources ke saath apni posts likenge to hum bhi aap se kuchh sikhlenge; Nahin to jo hum kah rahe hain use dhyan se padh kar isi subject pe dusre vidwanon ne jo sodh kiya hua hai woh dekhne ke baad likhoge to vad-vivad, churcha ya discussion ka kuchh arth hoga.

Aap hamesha yah yad rakho ki aap aur mein jo koshish kar rahe hain woh koi aisa vishya nahin hai jisme pahle baar do logon ke vichar praspar nahin mil rahe hon; yeh bahash World Level ke scholars ke madhya lagbhag do cdenturies ss chal rahi hai.

Lekin bina sabut ke jawab likhna aap ke hi bute ki baat hai. Misaal ke tor pe aap farmate hain :
Sarswati nadi 3000 BC mein tutani shuru hui,[Rigved mein kahan likha hai kripya post kijioyaga].

1900 BC mein bahni band ho gayi,? 1100 varsa lage tutane mein!!!

[Indiaan Saraswati aaj bhi bah rahi hai, Yamunanagar zile ke Aadi Badri sthan pe paharon se plains mein aati hai]

Rigveda ka nirman [ Jaise yeh koi building ya bandh ho?] 3000 BC se pehle hua.? [Aap yeh kis aadhar pe kah rahe ho]

Mahabharat ka nirman [Kitne karigaron ne kiya yeh nirman karya] 3000 BC se 1900 BC mein hua?

AAP KIS AADHAR PE KAH SAKTE HIN KI IRAN ITIYADI DESHON ME INSCRIPTIONAL EVIDENCE GALAT HAI;

Maine kis post mein yah likha hai ki Indo Aryan pahli bar bharat mein kab drishtigochar hote hain ?

Isliye nivedan hai ki tathyon ko sangrihit karne mein yogdaan dijiyaga, Ant mein, Tathyon pe adharit jawab ki injar rahegi !!!
Swal khoola hai : Aryon ka Mool Niwas sthan -- Tathya jo kahenge sabhi use swikaar kar lenge mein bhi aur aap bhi !