Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[narenderkharb]

To jara yahan Sanskrit ka shloka likh do . Yah uska mandal aur sukta number deyo.

Bhai ji maine ,Astak no Mandal no or Sukat no likha tha par shayad aap ne dhayan nahi diya.Since we read translations that vary author to author there is always a chance of error in reinterpretaion.But a sangam of Ganga yamuna and Sarsvati where the pious drop of Amrit fell is a most scared concept of Hindu religion .Any way.....let us move ahead.....

There are other evidences that are not covered in Kocchar paper ...

Say Rigvedic Hymns 6.61.3 mention a group of people who called brasyas/brahsaya that lived there and knew magic who were killed by Sarsvati river .There is also a mention of slaying of Parvatas....

If we read discription of this region by ancient greek author we find mention of tribe of Parvatoi ....Parvatas are also mentioned in later texts.Tribe of Brahs is stil living there as brahs/braich on the contrary there are no parvtoi in hissar hansi karnal.


Dr Rajpal mentioned an article of persian scholar Dr Ali who wrote about a river still similar in name to Drashdvati of rigveda in Iranian region but In India neither we ever heard from any of our elders about such a river ever flowing in this area.

Then there is a problem of this Arjika region .How can our scholars fit that in our sarsvati area .Surely we have to see some alternative option that fits Rigvedic discription of Sarsvati River.

 

[narenderkharb]

Vah! Ab yeh Vanki kaun hai? Kochcar ka rishtedaar? Iran mein Saraswati ka kya hua?

Bhai ji Aaap kal jin se poochkar kal aapne aale buddhyan(tur /Tomar) ne Malecch bata rahe the ..ye unnhi ka ristedar hai .......

Ur Iran aali sarsvati nai to aap le hi aaye the Yashpal ke saath Shayyad Ropar ,ambala Yamunanagar ke aas paas kanhi land karvayi thi exact to aap hi bata sakate ho.

 

[prashantacmet]

2. Rigvedon mein Saraswati nadi ko bahut mehattav diya hai. Nadi par anusnadhaan karne waale vaigyanikon ka maan na hai ki Saraswati 1900 BC mein sook gayi thi. Chunki Rigved mein yeh nadi paani se bharpoor thhi to iska abhipray yahi lagta hai ki Rigved 1900 BC se pehle likha gaya hoga.

I joined the discussion late so was going through all the posts . After seeing this thought of quoting on this. The basic question that came in my mind..

when the rig veda was written?

who wrote it?

where it was written?



so I started searching of history of writing and history of sanskrit....and both these wikepedia oppose your hypothesis that Rig veda was written before 1900 BC...if you have something in reference that oppose the wikipedia please reference here so that I can enhance my knowledge..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

Rig veda talks about chariot. and horse a lot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot

ab thodi mehnat karo maamma ji!!

 

[prashantacmet]

Friend,

The paper of Agrawal contains the following chronology without quoting any source to support as references given on the bottom are modern books not source books:

"

1. Chronology of the pre-historic period of India
   • Vedic Age - 7000-4000 BC
   • End of Rig Vedic Age - 3750 BC
   • End of Ramayana - Mahabharat Period - 3000 BC
   • Development of Saraswati-Indus Civilization - 3000-2000 BC
   • Decline of Indus and Saraswati Civilization - 2200-1900 BC
   • Period of Complete chaos and migration - 2000-1500 BC
   • Period of evolution of syncretic Hindu culture - 1400 - 250 BC

[SIZE=+1]References[/SIZE]Most of the material presented above has been taken from the following books.
1. The Aryan Invasion Theory and Indian Nationalism (1993) <tt>By</tt> Shrikant G. Talageri (Voice of India)
2. The Astronomical Code of India (1992) <tt>By</tt> Subhash Kak
3. Vedic Aryans and the Origins of Civilization (1995) <tt>By</tt> N.S. Rajaram and David Frawley (World Heritage Press)
4. Aryan Invasion of India: The Myth and the Truth <tt>By</tt> N.S. Rajaram (Voice of India Publication)
5. Indigenous Indians: Agastya to Ambedkar (1993) <tt>By</tt> Koenraad Elst
6. New Light on The Aryan Problem: Manthan Oct. 1994 (Journal of Deendayal Research Institute)
7. Dawn and Development of the Indus Civilization (1991) <tt>By</tt> S.R. Rao (Aditya Prakashan)


The readers are requested to use their discretion what original research the learned professor has presented [based totally on the secondary data !]

Rig vedic age ended at 3750 BC...does it mean that entire rigved was written before that?....these dates seems crap to me

 

[maddhan1979]

The puranas have to reexamined, from an astronomical lens

The purpose of Astronomy in the ancient days would have been to develop a calendar to govern day to day life including agriculture. When to expect rain, when to expect warm weather, when to sow the crops, when to travel by ship to other lands, for the right season, when the winds would be favourable etc.

The world view of the puranas with Mount Meru, and the seven worlds, the four rivers, going East, West, North, South, may just be geographical description of the world.

The four solstices, winter, to herald the start of the new year, Spring/Vernal- to herald the start of sowing season, , Summer- to mark the beginning towards Winter, and autumn, to mark the end f the harvest season, were very important.

Calendar would be lunar or solar. The lunar calendar would have to be adjusted regularly to synchronize with the solar calendar.

The puranic calendar was based around the sun travelling to the land of the Pitris from June to December, and in the land of the ‘Devas, from December to June. Calendars could also start from the vernal or autumnal equinoxes.

The other allegory in it’s the perpetual war between the Devas and the Asuras, for light against Darkness, or spring summer against autumn and winter.

India the slayer of demons, slayer of Vritta, releases the waters of heavens. This could mean also that the spring rains were released.

The yagyas or Yagnas were continuous events; designed to propigate the deified god Indra, who would upon having accepted the offerings of the yagya, would grant the Yajmans wishes.

The Nakshatras had the same use, to help develop and maintain a calendar.

In time superstition took over, and the actual meaning became clouded.

Coming back to Astronomy and its usefulness for determining the chronology.

There and many many references in the Rig Veda, the other Vedas, the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, which give us useful data.

One focus should be to see if these references can help us get a better fix of chronology.

Ravi Chaudhary

We must also remember a fact that lot of these books like Puranas and Vedas, have been been used by different identities to propagate their own thoughts. So, we really do not know, how much pure form of these books still exit or what and how they were in their original form, when they were written or were in oral tradition in the times when original people who developed them existed.
It is obvious that the different identities who found the use of these books to propagate masses and propagate their own ideologies must have had some kind of influence in the written matter of these books that we find today.

 

[rkumar]

Coming to Jatland after a long time. Went through some of the posts under this thread. Though I am not a formal student of conventional history, my take on the whole issue is very different. Earlier I started a post called " Missing links in Jat History". My interest is more in the history of human migration and that post was along the same lines. Taking same line once again, I don't accept the central Asia theory. My logic is that the earliest human migrations took place along sea shores and river banks and through the deep forests. Human moved deeper towards land from sea shores and river banks. Sea shores and river banks were the reference points for a very very long time. One can not understand human history without understanding the evolution of concept of time. Earliest form time keeping did not have the concept of weeks. Its a much later phenomenon. Smaller units of time like weeks, hours, minutes, seconds etc came very late in human history. Time keeping was done mostly through the reading of the positions of stars in sky and it continued this was for 1000s of years.

If we want to understand the topic, let us focus on one concept at a time, else we won't reach any where. My own study ( as reported in the thread " Missing links in Jat Histoy") shows that the Indian people migrating/ inhabiting can be traced to almost all parts of world. However, there is no proof that the center of gravity of Indian culture ever was out side South Asia. I am willing to debate on this point.

 

[narenderkharb]

Coming to Jatland after a long time. Went through some of the posts under this thread. Though I am not a formal student of conventional history, my take on the whole issue is very different. Earlier I started a post called " Missing links in Jat History". My interest is more in the history of human migration and that post was along the same lines. Taking same line once again, I don't accept the central Asia theory. My logic is that the earliest human migrations took place along sea shores and river banks and through the deep forests. Human moved deeper towards land from sea shores and river banks. Sea shores and river banks were the reference points for a very very long time. One can not understand human history without understanding the evolution of concept of time. Earliest form time keeping did not have the concept of weeks. Its a much later phenomenon. Smaller units of time like weeks, hours, minutes, seconds etc came very late in human history. Time keeping was done mostly through the reading of the positions of stars in sky and it continued this was for 1000s of years.

If we want to understand the topic, let us focus on one concept at a time, else we won't reach any where. My own study ( as reported in the thread " Missing links in Jat Histoy") shows that the Indian people migrating/ inhabiting can be traced to almost all parts of world. However, there is no proof that the center of gravity of Indian culture ever was out side South Asia. I am willing to debate on this point.

Welcome back Rajender ji

Nice to see a history lover again on the job.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Coming to Jatland after a long time. Went through some of the posts under this thread. Though I am not a formal student of conventional history, my take on the whole issue is very different. Earlier I started a post called " Missing links in Jat History". My interest is more in the history of human migration and that post was along the same lines. Taking same line once again, I don't accept the central Asia theory. My logic is that the earliest human migrations took place along sea shores and river banks and through the deep forests. Human moved deeper towards land from sea shores and river banks. Sea shores and river banks were the reference points for a very very long time. One can not understand human history without understanding the evolution of concept of time. Earliest form time keeping did not have the concept of weeks. Its a much later phenomenon. Smaller units of time like weeks, hours, minutes, seconds etc came very late in human history. Time keeping was done mostly through the reading of the positions of stars in sky and it continued this was for 1000s of years.

If we want to understand the topic, let us focus on one concept at a time, else we won't reach any where. My own study ( as reported in the thread " Missing links in Jat Histoy") shows that the Indian people migrating/ inhabiting can be traced to almost all parts of world. However, there is no proof that the center of gravity of Indian culture ever was out side South Asia. I am willing to debate on this point.

A very warm welcome Sir.

Hope to get enlightening views on various issues being debated under this thread.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Continuing his study on the Chronological frame work of Indian Chronology, S. B. Ray quoting from the list prepared on the basis of Pargiter, Ancient Indian Historical Traditions of the Kings given at pp. 144-149 and of the rishis given at pp. 191-2 together, has drawn appropriate inferences.

He is of the view that the Vedic hymns were kept intact from the times that Shaunaka, Ashwalayana and Katyayana prepared their indexes (c.1320 B.C.): Not even half syllable has been changed in them and they are like a huge stone inscription (or tape records) kept intact since 1300 B.C."

S.B. Roy, Ancient India--a Chronological Study......, p.62 quoted in his book, Date of the Mahabharata Battle, p. 171.

Regarding the Middle Vedic Age [chronology about this period has already been quoted in above posts], Shri SB Roy has successfully established cross contacts for this period and has concluded his discussion by enumerating various conclusions as given on pp.187-191.

To sum up the gist of his finding is :

We thus get two cross contacts in Indian protohistory:

Ashoka and Antiok, the yona raja in c. 257 B.C.

Divodasa of Helmund, Indatu of Ur, Hashrava of North Iran and Emissum of Larsa provide cross contacts in c.2000--1970 B.C.

The chronological infrastructure of the protohistoric India should satisfy these two fixed points.

Comments supported by relevant sources are welcome on the issue.

Thanks.

The thread relates basically to Chronology of pre historic times. Two important land marks on the issue in the form of cross contacts have been arrived at based on the research findings. Comments of the readers, on the above theme related issue [ posted no. 585 ] quoted above at http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...gy-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page30

are once again requested please.

 

[romar]

Bhai ji maine ,Astak no Mandal no or Sukat no likha tha par shayad aap ne dhayan nahi diya.

Dhyaan to diya thha per chunki aap Rigved ke gyaani hain to jara Mandal aur sookta de dijiye jis se doodh aur paani alag kiya ja sake.

Since we read translations that vary author to author there is always a chance of error in reinterpretaion.

Rigved Devnagari mein likha hai. Har koi padh sakta hai ki shlok mein saraswati aur ganga ka naam diya hai ki nahi.

There are other evidences that are not covered in Kocchar paper ...

Say Rigvedic Hymns 6.61.3 mention a group of people who called brasyas/brahsaya that lived there and knew magic who were killed by Sarsvati river .There is also a mention of slaying of Parvatas....

If we read discription of this region by ancient greek author we find mention of tribe of Parvatoi ....Parvatas are also mentioned in later texts.Tribe of Brahs is stil living there as brahs/braich on the contrary there are no parvtoi in hissar hansi karnal.

Wah Wah! Kya baat hai. Saraswati sookh gayi lekin uske paas rahne waale wahi rahane chhaiye thhe kyonki Kharb ji aisa chaha rahe thhe.

Aap ki baat be buniyaad hai. Aur ek sujhaav Greek stotr mein bahut ulat pulat likha hai aur unke bal boote per Rigved ka anusandhan nahi ho sakta.

Dr Rajpal mentioned an article of persian scholar Dr Ali who wrote about a river still similar in name to Drashdvati of rigveda in Iranian region but In India neither we ever heard from any of our elders about such a river ever flowing in this area.

Shloka number dijiye Avesta se jisme yeh baat likhi hai. Phalane dikhade ki baat kamjor hai mool stotra jab maujood hain.

Then there is a problem of this Arjika region .How can our scholars fit that in our sarsvati area .Surely we have to see some alternative option that fits Rigvedic discription of Sarsvati River.

Arjika ke saath kya dikkat aa gayi?

Kamaal ki baat hai ki Rigved mein Saraswati ka poora varnan hai.

Bahut badi nadi kahi gayi hai jo samudra tak pahunchti hai. Jiske ird gird bahut basaasat hai. Aur archaeologists ne yeh dikha diya hai ki jis nadi ka anusandhaan Dr Yashpal ne kiya tha us nadi ke paas hi kai sau shahar, gaon mile hain jaisa is nakshe se saaf jahir hai:
http://micheldanino.voiceofdharma.com/images/map.jpg

Aur Iran ke AVesta granth mein kahin Saraswati nadi ka jikra nahin. Phirbhi Rig Ved ki Saraswati Bharat me na ho kar Iran mein kaise pahunchi?

 

[romar]

Bhai ji Aaap kal jin se poochkar kal aapne aale buddhyan(tur /Tomar) ne Malecch bata rahe the ..ye unnhi ka ristedar hai .......

Is baat ka kya matlab hai?

Ur Iran aali sarsvati nai to aap le hi aaye the Yashpal ke saath Shayyad Ropar ,ambala Yamunanagar ke aas paas kanhi land karvayi thi exact to aap hi bata sakate ho.

Bade bade vaigyanik, jinhone shodh kiya hai, kah rahe hain pramaan ke saath ki Saraswati kahan se kahan tak chalti thhi. Nakshe diye ja chuke hain. Aapne bhi dekhe hain.

Lekin umeed nahi hai ki aap ki samajh mein kuch aayega. Jab dimaag band ho aur sirf Saraswati Iran mein hi deekhti hai tab aisa hi hota hai.

 

[romar]

I joined the discussion late so was going through all the posts . After seeing this thought of quoting on this. The basic question that came in my mind..

when the rig veda was written?

who wrote it?

where it was written?

so I started searching of history of writing and history of sanskrit....and both these wikepedia oppose your hypothesis that Rig veda was written before 1900 BC...if you have something in reference that oppose the wikipedia please reference here so that I can enhance my knowledge..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

Rig veda talks about chariot. and horse a lot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot

ab thodi mehnat karo maamma ji!!

Bhaanje Saraswati nadi ka itihaas padho gutthi ko suljhaane ke liye. Ek samay thha jab yeh nadi Pahad se samudra tak bina toote chalti thhi. Phir Isme paani kam padne laga aur jagah jagah johad talaab bante chale gaye. Iske baad ek aisa samay aaya ki yeh nadi sookh gayi aur kewal barsaat ke dino mein paani rahene laga.

Vaiyganik logon ne yeh shodh kiya hai ki lagbhag 3000 BC se pehle isme paani bharpoor thha aur kahin yeh nadi tooti nayi. 3000 BC ke baad yeh nadi tootne lagi aur 1900BC ke baad sook gayi.

Rigved mein is nadi ka pahad se samudra tak pahunchne ka varnan hai. Kahin tootne ka jikr nahi. Iske baad ke granthon mein is nadi ke tootne ka aur johad banane ka jikra hai jaise Mahabharat ityadi.

Isse nishkarsh yeh nikalta hai ki Rigved ki rachna is nadi ke tootne wale phase se pehle hui hai.

Jahan tak likhne ka sawaal aisa to nahi hai ki bharat mein likhne ka koi pramaan nahi hai. Harappa mein bahut saari seal mili hai jinme likhne/likhai ka saaf udharan hai.

 

[romar]

Taking same line once again, I don't accept the central Asia theory.

Aapki baat solah aane khari hai. Yahan kuch buddhijivi Bharat ke Aryon ko, Bharat ki nadiyon ko aur yahan ke rajaon ko Irani bata rahe hai. Unse koi pramaan pucho to kuch dete nahin. Apni betuki baat manwaane ki koshish kar rahe hain.

My logic is that the earliest human migrations took place along sea shores and river banks and through the deep forests. Human moved deeper towards land from sea shores and river banks. Sea shores and river banks were the reference points for a very very long time. One can not understand human history without understanding the evolution of concept of time. Earliest form time keeping did not have the concept of weeks. Its a much later phenomenon. Smaller units of time like weeks, hours, minutes, seconds etc came very late in human history. Time keeping was done mostly through the reading of the positions of stars in sky and it continued this was for 1000s of years.

If we want to understand the topic, let us focus on one concept at a time, else we won't reach any where. My own study ( as reported in the thread " Missing links in Jat Histoy") shows that the Indian people migrating/ inhabiting can be traced to almost all parts of world.

Aap ke tathya padhne ki utsukta hai jara vistaar se likhiyega. Ravi Chaudhary ne bhi aise prasang ka jikr yahan kiya hai:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/7657

However, there is no proof that the center of gravity of Indian culture ever was out side South Asia. I am willing to debate on this point.

Yeh baat bilkul sahi.

 

[romar]

The thread relates basically to Chronology of pre historic times. Two important land marks on the issue in the form of cross contacts have been arrived at based on the research findings. Comments of the readers, on the above theme related issue [ posted no. 585 ] quoted above at http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...gy-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page30

are once again requested please.

Bahut khoob. Na Saraswati ka pramaan Avesta se diya ja raha hai aur na Divodas ka Iran mein hone ka. Phir bhi Roy theek hai aur Rigved galat. Aap bina pramaan, yani katai jhooth baat, baar baar kaise doraha sakte hain?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

The thread relates basically to Chronology of pre historic times. Two important land marks on the issue in the form of cross contacts have been arrived at based on the research findings. Comments of the readers, on the above theme related issue [ posted no. 585 ] quoted above at http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...gy-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page30

are once again requested please.

Friends.

As suggested by several participants earlier also and Shri Rajendra Kumarji in his post yesterday should we not follow the wisdom of logical method suggested. I think we must seriously think over the suggestion and make useful contribution to discussions. Divergence of opinion must not be considered opposition but must be taken as healthy sign of scholarly debate. We must discuss posts and not the persons. Other views can be different from mine but for smooth flow of discussion what I feel as my duty to share with all the friends is:

This thread was started to discuss the chronology problem of history of India, and perhaps, if we concentrate on the problem of the chronology is settled first then many issues such as migration immigration of Indo Aryans, original home of the Aryans, their relations with the Indo-Iranians etc as well as the perplexing question of the identification of rivers, regions, mountains given in the Puranas and also the question of antiquity of the Jats could find solutions.

If all the issues are taken together for discussion at one place, no fruitful purpose would be served as is clear from the discussion so far. We must extend help in segregating the issues and then take one by one.

If agreed upon by the participants this thread may exclusively be used to discuss ancient chronology only. We have already presented S.B. Roy's views on the issue. If somebody wants to challenge his findings he must use his reasoning here on this thread.

For original home of the Aryans including identification of related issues of regions, rivers, mountains and their battles we can post our comments of the thread:Puzzle of Original Home of the 'Aryans'--A newer discussion


In the same way, regarding fixation of the chronology of epoch making battle Bharata or Mahabharata, the participants are welcome to join comments on :In Quest of Chronology of Epic Mahabharata and Bharata Battle

 

[nrao]

Ranbir brother .....

I asked you to read a research paper by Kocchar ...Did you read that ???.
I don't think so....Had you read that ...You won't have asked this question .


Any way ...I will give the information sought by you from his paper.

" There is an uncanny similarity between the Rigvedic description of Sarasvati and Avestan description of Helmand. Rigveda (Rv 6.61.8) talks of Sarasvati 'whose limitless unbroken flood, swift moving with a rapid rush, comes onward with tempestuous roar', while Yasht (10.67) refers to 'the bountiful, glorious Hetumant swelling its white waves rolling down its copious floods''

Go to Yasht (10.67)and find out what is written there.

Yasht 10.67 mein toh yeh likha hai:

67. 'We sacrifice unto Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, .... sleepless, and ever awake;
'Who drives along on his high-wheeled chariot, made of a heavenly substance, from the Karshvare [keshwar] of Arezahi to the Karshvare of Xwaniratha, the bright one; accompanied by the wheel of sovereignty, the Glory made by Mazda, and the Victory made by Ahura;

isme toh koi bhi nadi ka naam nahin hai, yahan tak ki paani tak ka varnan nahin hai aur naa hi koi Hetumant ya phir Haraxvathi jaise sthan ka.
http://www.avesta.org/ka/yt10sbe.htm

It also appears that both Hetumant or Haraxvathi are names of land and should not be confused with river.

I think Mr Ravi Chaudhary has put a nice series of posts on this issue, we can start with the first one:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/7654

 

[narenderkharb]

Friends.

If all the issues are taken together for discussion at one place, no fruitful purpose would be served as is clear from the discussion so far. We must extend help in segregating the issues and then take one by one.

If agreed upon by the participants this thread may exclusively be used to discuss ancient chronology only.

Nice suggestion.
Let us keep it for chronology.
let us start with the cross contacts say ....Indatu his time period ,Hosarva ...Kavasa....find their contemporary kings and Rishis ...crosscheck them from other sources and arrive at some suitable conclusion.

 

[narenderkharb]

We can also start a new thread Rigvedic River Sarswati In India or Iran where we can discuss this river exclusively .

 

[romar]

Yasht 10.67 mein toh yeh likha hai:

67. 'We sacrifice unto Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, .... sleepless, and ever awake;
'Who drives along on his high-wheeled chariot, made of a heavenly substance, from the Karshvare [keshwar] of Arezahi to the Karshvare of Xwaniratha, the bright one; accompanied by the wheel of sovereignty, the Glory made by Mazda, and the Victory made by Ahura;

isme toh koi bhi nadi ka naam nahin hai, yahan tak ki paani tak ka varnan nahin hai aur naa hi koi Hetumant ya phir Haraxvathi jaise sthan ka.
http://www.avesta.org/ka/yt10sbe.htm

It also appears that both Hetumant or Haraxvathi are names of land and should not be confused with river.

I think Mr Ravi Chaudhary has put a nice series of posts on this issue, we can start with the first one:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/7654

Hadh ho gai bhai. Ek professor aur doosra uska bhi tau katai dhuppal pe dhuppal pelne ki koshish kar rahe hain. Kya in logon ko sach dikhai nahi de raha?

 

[rkumar]

There is an interesting book on the subject. The title is "Primitive Traditional History; The Primitive History and Chronology of India" written by JF Hewitt. This gentleman was the commissioner of Chota Nagpur. I would request the members to please read this book to initiate any further meaningful discussion on the subject. I have a digital copy of the book. Please let me know who all want this book. Let us give a pause to this thread till you have read the book. I wonder if there is a way to download the book here on Jatland website. Those who want the book, please quote your email id.