Rakesh ibb galti to tunnai bhugatni padegi..Tunnai likhna tha ke yo copy paste sai..Nyu koni baccha jaawe..Tu ek min koni laawe isse isse mauke pai...bechare kayi to teri laayi hodd punjhadaan ke darr tai aade aana bhi chhod ge.
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Drawbacks in "system"
- Thread starter vikrantchodhary
- Start date
Rakesh ibb galti to tunnai bhugatni padegi..Tunnai likhna tha ke yo copy paste sai..Nyu koni baccha jaawe..Tu ek min koni laawe isse isse mauke pai...bechare kayi to teri laayi hodd punjhadaan ke darr tai aade aana bhi chhod ge.
anilsangwan
Active member
Rakesh ibb galti to tunnai bhugatni padegi..Tunnai likhna tha ke yo copy paste sai..Nyu koni baccha jaawe..Tu ek min koni laawe isse isse mauke pai...bechare kayi to teri laayi hodd punjhadaan ke darr tai aade aana bhi chhod ge.
हा हा हा हा हा Theek kahi Atish.
Rakesh, काली मतना माने भाई ... तू जब पून्झ्द लावे तो दूस्र्याँ के भी इतना इ चरमराट माचे स ......... भाई राकेश हम ने तू बिना पूँझ डी भी आछा लागे स..... लेकिन या तो सिर्फ उन आत्मा की शान्ति खातिर थी जिन का कालजा तेंने दुखा राख्या स पुंजडा के ..... आतिश आली बात स... लोग आना छोड़ गे .... हा हा हा हा हा हा हा ...आर हाँ .... ये जो फोटू तेने चेपी सें गूगल पर तें कोपी कर के ......ताली बजवान आली ......... इनकी पूँझडी उधार रही....
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dahiyavijay7
New member
A) Do you think all civil servants are like this man
B) Do you think that in this country you only know about the working of bureaucracy
C) Yes I also say that they only provide all means for corruption
D) Yes poor clerk has only responsibility to work, knowledge of the work and accept blame if required, authority is with officers only
E) The fact is the so called real rulers has no knowledge, no interest and no time for public good/work
Dear Fateh Singh
Where did I say that all civil servants are like this man, in fact you were saying that civil servants are running this country and lower employees/clerks are corrupt.
I never stated that I am the only person who knew about the working of bureaucracy. Further, if you had the knowledge of working of bureaucracy, then, you might not have blamed the lower employees.
If the lower employee were corrupt then what the honest officers are doing, whose only work is the supervision of their lower employees. In fact, even the Supreme Court have validated that officer is responsible for the actions of his subordinates.
dahiyavijay7
New member
The author has disregarded the fact that politician govern the bureaucracy. The author contended that bureaucracy is inefficient. A large chunk of amount released for welfare work is siphoned off by the bureaucracy. it would be imprudent to conclude that the lower staff eats away this money. In this regard, it is intimated that bureaucracy is the only apparatus to draw the money from the treasury. The corrupt politician can not go to the RBI and take out the money from the locker for their personal use. The only way left to the politicians to make black money is to make a welfare scheme on paper and ask the bureaucrates to draw the money and give half of the money to the politician, then left is siphoned off to the contractor (relatives of politicians) to implement the scheme. The lower employee just take 1% bribe from these contractors, who are blamed for the corruption.Friend,
I would like to draw your attention towards an article below:
dahiyavijay7
New member
The media is fooling the people at the behest of politicians and you are buying the story. The bureaucracy in India work more than any other country at very low pay and under very pitiful conditions. Still is be inefficient. It is not due to that employees do not work. The Politician ask the IAS of PWD to give certain crores, if he do not want to get transferred in Animal Husbandry department. The IAS obliges and make a scheme to build roads. The clerks becomes busy in blackening the paper for various section implement the decision. The road are build by the workers by working day and night. then, the Politician demands more money and orders laying down the sewer lines. The roads are again damaged to lay down the sewer lines. Then, the next government came. It orders building the roads again to make money. Then, after some time makes the proposal to lay down the water pipeline. The piple line is build but damaging the road again. In this process the sewer line is also damaged. The road is again build. This is a perpetual cycle, where the employees make hardwork over and over again so that black money could be stashed by the politician and still you are blaming the bureaucracy. The bureaucracy can not neglect the orders of Mantriji elected by you.Friend,
Please read the article:
Indian bureaucracy – the most inefficient?
http://asiancorrespondent.com/33289/indian-bureaucracy-–-the-most-inefficient/
More :
India has the most inefficient bureaucracy in Asia, according to an expat survey.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/7801030/Red-tape-in-India-causes-problems-for-expats.html
Dear Vijay, please read my previous and your post and than come backDear Fateh Singh
Where did I say that all civil servants are like this man, in fact you were saying that civil servants are running this country and lower employees/clerks are corrupt.
I never stated that I am the only person who knew about the working of bureaucracy. Further, if you had the knowledge of working of bureaucracy, then, you might not have blamed the lower employees.
If the lower employee were corrupt then what the honest officers are doing, whose only work is the supervision of their lower employees. In fact, even the Supreme Court have validated that officer is responsible for the actions of his subordinates.
The media is fooling the people at the behest of politicians and you are buying the story. The bureaucracy in India work more than any other country at very low pay and under very pitiful conditions. Still is be inefficient. It is not due to that employees do not work. The Politician ask the IAS of PWD to give certain crores, if he do not want to get transferred in Animal Husbandry department. The IAS obliges and make a scheme to build roads. The clerks becomes busy in blackening the paper for various section implement the decision. The road are build by the workers by working day and night. then, the Politician demands more money and orders laying down the sewer lines. The roads are again damaged to lay down the sewer lines. Then, the next government came. It orders building the roads again to make money. Then, after some time makes the proposal to lay down the water pipeline. The piple line is build but damaging the road again. In this process the sewer line is also damaged. The road is again build. This is a perpetual cycle, where the employees make hardwork over and over again so that black money could be stashed by the politician and still you are blaming the bureaucracy. The bureaucracy can not neglect the orders of Mantriji elected by you.
Friend,
On one hand you are saying that politicians govern bureaucracy and politicians are the main driver of corruption.
On the other hand when media exposes about inefficient bureaucracy then it's again politician who make media to publish such reports.
Why would they(Politicians) do that?
drrajpalsingh
New member
Late Chaudhary Devi Lal Ji kaha karade, Bhrastachar kee jad upper hoti hai aur yah amarbel kee tarah sare system ko khokhala kar deti hai. Yadi barastachar mitana hai to unche padon se shuruat karani hogi!
(Amarbel ke koi jad nahin hoti, vah jis ped ke upper chiptati hai uska sara ras pee jati hai aur ped sukh Jata hai.)
Aap is bare mein kya kahate hain.
(Amarbel ke koi jad nahin hoti, vah jis ped ke upper chiptati hai uska sara ras pee jati hai aur ped sukh Jata hai.)
Aap is bare mein kya kahate hain.
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Late Chaudhary Devi Lal Ji kaha karade, Bhrastachar kee jad upper hoti hai aur yah amarbel kee tarah sare system ko khokhala kar deti hai. Yadi barastachar mitana hai to unche padon se shuruat karani hogi!
(Amarbel ke koi jad nahin hoti, vah jis ped ke upper chiptati hai uska sara ras pee jati hai aur ped sukh Jata hai.)
Aap is bare mein kya kahate hain.
Respected Sir,
I am not defending politicians. In fact when when we drafted our constitution, our politicians did not analysed our requirements properly.Patel was happy to keep British legacy intact without changing it. In our constituion we showed a great sympathy for bureaucracy and did not provide any provision to review it from time to time. This loose point is hurting us today.
Now the point is how do we get the system right. Its the people who decide the fate of politicians. But the problem is that very few understand what needs to be done. People get high jacked by thugs like Baba Ramdev and groups like Anna Hazare. Anna Hazare lokpal bill could be disaster without reform in the bureaucracy. People need to understand the concepts of governance. Without reforming our bureaucracy we cannot achieve what we want. The topic of governance is very big. So very few would like to go in details and understand it. Its the people who need to ask their leaders to have a reformed bureaucracy in place. Otherwise this issue of corruption will never be over.
Late Chaudhary Devi Lal Ji kaha karade, Bhrastachar kee jad upper hoti hai aur yah amarbel kee tarah sare system ko khokhala kar deti hai. Yadi barastachar mitana hai to unche padon se shuruat karani hogi!
(Amarbel ke koi jad nahin hoti, vah jis ped ke upper chiptati hai uska sara ras pee jati hai aur ped sukh Jata hai.)
Aap is bare mein kya kahate hain.
Respected Sir,
Please read the quoted posts. I hope it would be good read. The posts below explain what is required.
1.क्या भारत में यह जन आक्रोश एक सामाजिक एवं राजनितिक क्रांति में बदलेगा?
नहीं.
1.1 यदि हाँ तो क्यों ?
-------------------------
1.2 यदि नहीं तो क्यों ?
क्यूंकि पिछले तीन चार महीने घटनापूर्ण बेशक रहे हों, पर अभूतपूर्व कहीं से नहीं थे. आज के समय में, मीडिया के चलते, हर घटना का विवरण दस गुणा करके होता है. अन्ना का आन्दोलन इन्टरनेट और टीवी पे अधिक और सड़कों पे कम था. बाबा के आन्दोलन में जनता थोड़ी और थी, पर अधिकतर लोग बाबा के अनुयायी हैं न की आन्दोलनकारी. इससे कहीं अधिक बवाल किसी भी जाति के आरक्षण के आन्दोलन में होता है, पर वोह दिल्ली के जंतर मंतर पे नहीं होता और मीडिया को उसमें ख़ास दिलचस्पी नहीं होती.
2. क्या वर्तमान जन आक्रोश में क्रांति के सभी घटक मौजूद हैं?
मुझे नहीं लगता. लोग क्रांति पे तब उतरते हैं जब वोह परिस्तिथियों से एक लाचारी महसूस करते हैं. और उनके पास खोने को कुछ ज्यादा नहीं होता. आज का मध्य वर्ग अपनी ज़िन्दगी की दौड़ में व्यस्त है. दूसरा, आक्रोष अपनी चरम सीमा पे तब पहुचता है, जब उसे कोई निकास नहीं मिलता. प्रजातंत्र को चाहे जितनी भी गाली दे दो, पर लोग सरकार के खिलाफ जम के बोल सकते है. जिससे आक्रोष अपने आप कम हो जाता है.
2.1 क्या भारत में कभी क्रांति हो भी सकती है ?
पता नहीं. क्रांति वैसे ही बहुत कठिन होती है. भारत जैसे देश में जहां इतनी विविधताएं हैं, वहाँ लोगों को क्रांति के लिए जोड़ना और भी कठिन है. प्रजातंत्र के चलते यह और भी कठिन हो जाता है, चूँकि लोग अपनी भड़ास निकाल सकते हैं. दिल्ली में जहां क्रांति को लेके सबसे ज्यादा हल्ला मचता है, वहाँ चुनाव के समय ४५ फीसदी मतदान होता है. जो लोग कतार में खड़े होके एक वोट डालने में आलस करते हैं, वोह क्रांति के लिए सड़कों पे उतरेंगे? दूसरी और तमिलनाडु की जनता ने ८० फीसदी से अधिक मतदान देके एक भ्रष्ट सरकार को बदला, हालांकि वहाँ इस क्रांति कि कोई लहर नहीं थी.
3. आप क्या स्वयम सडको पर उतरना चाहेंगे ?
नहीं.
3.1 यदि हाँ तो क्यों?
-----------------------------------------------------------
3.2 यदि नहीं तो क्या आपको रोक रहा है ?
अव्वल तो आन्दोलन में मेरी आस्था कम ही है. अधिकतर आन्दोलन या तो hijack हो जाते हैं या गुमराह. पर अगर कोई आन्दोलन जिसकी मांग से मैं मेल खाता हूँ और जो प्रजातंत्र में रहते हुए राजनीती में भाग लेता है, तो मैं उसका पूरा समर्थन करूंगा.
बाबा और अन्ना कि मांगों से मेरी सहमती नहीं है. मेरे विचार से भ्रष्टाचार का सबसे महत्त्वपूर्ण कारण है कि सरकार के अनेक और पेचीदे कायदे कानून. भारत में हर काम के लिए पचास अनुमतियाँ और सौ सरकारी लोगों के हस्ताक्षर लेने पड़ते हैं. जहां ऐसी कार्य प्रणाली होगी, वहाँ भ्रष्टाचार स्वाभाविक है. जिस खेल में नियम स्पष्ट और सरल नहीं होंगे, वहाँ बेईमानी तो होगी ही. अन्ना और बाबा की मांगों का इस बात से लेना देना नहीं है. प्रणाली मैं सुधार के बजाय (जो कि शायद सुनने मैं और बोलने मैं बोरिंग है) उनकी मांगें थोड़ी फिल्मों जैसी हैं जहां एक ईमानदार हीरो सब बेईमानों को नष्ट कर देता है. .नेताओं से क्रोधित जनता को "भ्रष्टाचार मिटाओ" का नारा बहुत लुभाता है, पर यह उतना ही प्रभावी है जितना कि इंदिरा का "गरीबी हटाओ" नारा था.
समर भाई,
कि विभिन्न देशों के सरकारी ढांचों में कितना अंतर है. जिन देशों में भ्रष्टाचार कम है, वहाँ के मनुष्यों का DNA हमसे भिन्न नहीं है- हाँ उनकी प्रणाली हमसे सरल और सुचारू अवश्य है. एक जानकार का किस्सा बताता हूँ. उसने UK में अपना बिजनेस एक घंटे में ऑनलाइन बैठे रजिस्टर कर लिया. यही काम उसे भारत में करने के लिए एक महीने से ऊपर लगा जहां उसके सरकारी दफ्तरों के बहुत चक्कर लगे. अब आप क्या करना चाहेंगे? सरकारी दफ्तर के हर कर्मचारी का सुधार या फिर ऐसी प्रणाली जहां इतने चक्कर लगाने की आवशयकता ही न हो? ऐसा भी नहीं है की भारत ने प्रणाली में सुधार के फायदे नहीं देखे हों. आज से बीस पच्चीस साल पहले, फ़ोन लगवाने में सात साल की वेटिंग लिस्ट होती थी. फ़ोन मिलता था तो फिर हर अगले दिन dead हो जाता था. फिर lineman आता था और चाय-पानी की मांग करता था. आज फ़ोन का कनेक्शन फुर्ती से मिलता है. जब फ़ोन dead होता है, तो आप lineman की शकल भी नहीं देखते. इंसान तो वही हैं- परिवर्तन उनके व्यक्तित्व में हुआ की प्रणाली में?
प्रणाली में सुधार कि बात कोई नयी है. इस विषय पे अनेक सरकारी और गैर सरकारी रिपोर्ट लिखी जा चुकी हैं. जैसे की ऐसा माना जाता है की अधिकतर सरकारी अनुमतियाँ "single window clearance system" से मिलनी चाहिए. चाहे पानी का कनेक्शन हो या बिजनेस की अनुमति, आवेदक बस एक अर्जी दे और निर्धारित समय पे उस पर फैसला हो. सरकारी व्यवस्था में सुधार के ऐसे कई सुझाव हैं. इन सुझावों में एक समानता ये है की ये सब सरकार, मंत्री और ब्युरोक्रैट की ताकतों को कम करते हैं. जितने फैसले पारदर्शी नियमों से हो जाएँ, उतने ही भ्रष्टाचार के अवसर कम होंगे. और जितने अलग अलग लोगों की मर्ज़ी पे होंगे, उतना ही ताकत के दुरूपयोग के अवसर बढ़ेंगे. सिद्धान्ती तौर पे मैं मानता हूँ कि एक अच्छा लोकपाल, संसद और सरकार पे चेक का काम कर सकता है. पर यह अनिवार्य है कि लोकपाल खुद अपने आप सुपर सरकार न बन जाए. अब भावनाओं को परे कर के अगर आप अन्ना टीम के लोक पाल बिल का विश्लेषण करें, तो वो इस कसौटी पे खरा नहीं उतरता.
हम भारतीयों कि आस्था महानायकों में अधिक होती है. हम सोचते हैं कि एक महानायक को बहुत ताकत दे दो, वोह सारा सिस्टम साफ़ कर देगा और सारे नेता रुपी खलनायकों को लाइन पे लगा देगा. असल में तो महानायक हो या खलनायक, हैं सब हाड-मांस के इंसान ही. ताकत कब किस के सर चढ़ जाए कहा नहीं जा सकता. और फिर महानायक से खलनायक का सफ़र ज्यादा लम्बा नहीं है. इसलिए मेरी आस्था प्रणाली को बेहतर करने में है न की लोगों को.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Respected Sir,
I am not defending politicians. In fact when when we drafted our constitution, our politicians did not analysed our requirements properly.Patel was happy to keep British legacy intact without changing it. In our constituion we showed a great sympathy for bureaucracy and did not provide any provision to review it from time to time. This loose point is hurting us today.
Now the point is how do we get the system right. Its the people who decide the fate of politicians. But the problem is that very few understand what needs to be done. People get high jacked by thugs like Baba Ramdev and groups like Anna Hazare. Anna Hazare lokpal bill could be disaster without reform in the bureaucracy. People need to understand the concepts of governance. Without reforming our bureaucracy we cannot achieve what we want. The topic of governance is very big. So very few would like to go in details and understand it. Its the people who need to ask their leaders to have a reformed bureaucracy in place. Otherwise this issue of corruption will never be over.
Valued Friend,
I have gone through both of your posts (49 and50) with interest but to my mind awakening the masses from slumber is the need of the hour, then and only then, rest of the things would start happening in the interest of the nation.
It would be in the fitness of things to avoid using derogatory words for anyone (whether we agree or disagree with him/her) in academic discussion.
Sardar Patel was one of the hundreds of members who were members of the Constituent Assembly. So it is wrong to blame him for the good or bad points in the present system.
Thanks.
Dr Janghu, people in India will not awake from slumber till water reaches their nose as happened in Egypt. Country is passing through height of corruption. Politicians are in vicious cycle, they get involved in a new scandal to hide an old one and there is no end to it. It is not one political party; all are chips of the same stone. Only a revolution can bring a new phase in life of the people of India. India is fortunate that they have the youngest population in the world and the youth of India has the capability to bring that change. It is just a matter of time, the change is inevitable.
Valued Friend,
I have gone through both of your posts (49 and50) with interest but to my mind awakening the masses from slumber is the need of the hour, then and only then, rest of the things would start happening in the interest of the nation.
It would be in the fitness of things to avoid using derogatory words for anyone (whether we agree or disagree with him/her) in academic discussion.
Sardar Patel was one of the hundreds of members who were members of the Constituent Assembly. So it is wrong to blame him for the good or bad points in the present system.
Thanks.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Dr Janghu, people in India will not awake from slumber till water reaches their nose as happened in Egypt. Country is passing through height of corruption. Politicians are in vicious cycle, they get involved in a new scandal to hide an old one and there is no end to it. It is not one political party; all are chips of the same stone. Only a revolution can bring a new phase in life of the people of India. India is fortunate that they have the youngest population in the world and the youth of India has the capability to bring that change. It is just a matter of time, the change is inevitable.
Gulia Sahib,
Change is the law of nature and it is said that if winter comes spring is not far behind. But, at the present juncture, it does not seem possible that 'Revolution' is knocking at our doors as the objective conditions in Indian Democracy are strong enough to counter such insurgency through battle of ballot not bullet.
regards.
I personally feel, niether objective conditions in indian democracy are strong nor Indian public, but revolution is not knocking door because we have become totally selfish and weak, also there is no democracy in india, we are ruled by dictetors in the name of political party which is run by one person, Infact it is worst than dictetorship because atlist dectetor is responsible for both good/bad, here these sameless goons are not responsible, Rajpal ji, do you think the changed party will rule us democratically, will give corruption free rule and justiceGulia Sahib,
Change is the law of nature and it is said that if winter comes spring is not far behind. But, at the present juncture, it does not seem possible that 'Revolution' is knocking at our doors as the objective conditions in Indian Democracy are strong enough to counter such insurgency through battle of ballot not bullet.
regards.
drrajpalsingh
New member
I personally feel, niether objective conditions in indian democracy are strong nor Indian public, but revolution is not knocking door because we have become totally selfish and weak, also there is no democracy in india, we are ruled by dictetors in the name of political party which is run by one person, Infact it is worst than dictetorship because atlist dectetor is responsible for both good/bad, here these sameless goons are not responsible, Rajpal ji, do you think the changed party will rule us democratically, will give corruption free rule and justice
I am optimistic and have full faith in the power of people of India and Indian democracy.
I am optimistic and have full faith in the power of people of India and Indian democracy.
Dear, blind faith is dangerous, however, it is your wish, but I agree that a positive attitude keeps a person healthy and happy, so enjoy and we all hope for the best, regards
That is the only option available....................
I am optimistic and have full faith in the power of people of India and Indian democracy.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Dear, blind faith is dangerous, however, it is your wish, but I agree that a positive attitude keeps a person healthy and happy, so enjoy and we all hope for the best, regards
Thanks for the best wishes.
Regards,
Gulia Sahib,
Change is the law of nature and it is said that if winter comes spring is not far behind. But, at the present juncture, it does not seem possible that 'Revolution' is knocking at our doors as the objective conditions in Indian Democracy are strong enough to counter such insurgency through battle of ballot not bullet.
regards.
Respected Sir,
From my knowledge and understanding, things will change slowly. At this slow rate,it may take another 100 years for what we want today . But this slow movement is costing us a lot. Its more dangerous than corruption. There is too much power in the hands of handful people. This power concentration is the main reason of corruption. Its a prototype of dictatorship!
Its not that easy to get rid of powerful and arrogant bureaucracy. People in central secretariat are very powerful and very inefficient. Remember inefficient bureaucracy is more dangerous than corruption. Power abuse is quite prevalent is our bureaucracy. Even politicians find it very hard to get things done by this ignorant and inefficient bureaucrats in central secretariat. Unless we do not decentralize our system, its very hard to achieve objectives. I am hoping for the best and expecting the worst!
Regards,
drrajpalsingh
New member
Respected Sir,
From my knowledge and understanding, things will change slowly. At this slow rate,it may take another 100 years for what we want today . But this slow movement is costing us a lot. Its more dangerous than corruption. There is too much power in the hands of handful people. This power concentration is the main reason of corruption. Its a prototype of dictatorship!
Its not that easy to get rid of powerful and arrogant bureaucracy. People in central secretariat are very powerful and very inefficient. Remember inefficient bureaucracy is more dangerous than corruption. Power abuse is quite prevalent is our bureaucracy. Even politicians find it very hard to get things done by this ignorant and inefficient bureaucrats in central secretariat. Unless we do not decentralize our system, its very hard to achieve objectives. I am hoping for the best and expecting the worst!
Regards,
Friend,
Every one demands and agrees that certain corrective steps in our administrative system especially at delivery of services need immediate attention at the level of policy makers and it is heartening to note that in recent years some measures to make it transparent have been initiated. This is a good beginning and needs further push to expedite to make it further workable, responsible and sensitive.
But we must remember that enlightened citizens' cooperation to make any system effective is of utmost importance. We should concentrate our efforts and contribute towards making them aware about their rights and duties at the same time. This will surely help in overcoming the bottle necks in the delivery of timely services.
Thanks and regards.